 
Support Wrong Planet Awareness!
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
LTP
Raven
Joined: Jun 14, 2008
Age: 17
Posts: 122
|
 Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: The Moral animal Why we are the way we are by robrt wright |
 |
|
| Has anyone else read this book? The author attempts to explain different aspects of psychology in darwinian terms. Some of the stuff on male-female interactions, humility, and competition between males was quite fascinating. This book might help answer some questions about how NTs act and why. |
|
| Back to top |
|
krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 45
Posts: 4995
Location: Village of the Damned
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: The Moral animal Why we are the way we are by robrt wrig |
|
|
| LTP wrote: | | Has anyone else read this book? The author attempts to explain different aspects of psychology in darwinian terms. Some of the stuff on male-female interactions, humility, and competition between males was quite fascinating. This book might help answer some questions about how NTs act and why. |
I would be interested in reading it...how do you think aspies fit into this social Darwinism theory. Flucks of genetic mutation or the New Breed?
_________________
Just because one plane is flying out of formation, doesnt mean the formation is on course....R.D.Lang
Visit my crafts store
http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=5412685 |
|
| Back to top |
|
pakled
"Bless his Heart"
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Age: 51
Posts: 3044
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
oh yeah, sociobiology, or at least that's what it sounds like...
never read the book, but I'm familiar with the concept. You engage in altruistic or selfish behavior based on the advantages it gives you in passing your genes along to the future.
I dunno..I'd think the beta males; who are getting it on with the females while the alpha males are fighting for dominance... |
|
| Back to top |
|
LTP
Raven
Joined: Jun 14, 2008
Age: 17
Posts: 122
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: The Moral animal Why we are the way we are by robrt wrig |
|
|
| krex wrote: | | LTP wrote: | | Has anyone else read this book? The author attempts to explain different aspects of psychology in darwinian terms. Some of the stuff on male-female interactions, humility, and competition between males was quite fascinating. This book might help answer some questions about how NTs act and why. |
I would be interested in reading it...how do you think aspies fit into this social Darwinism theory. Flucks of genetic mutation or the New Breed? |
Well technically a genetic fluke but that applies to evolution as a whole. My personal opinion is that the next stage of human evolution is going to be a cerebral one and I would like to think that autistic people are the beginning of this next stage but who knows we could just as easily be a false start. I think as humanity is besieged by more and more problems that require intellect to solve networking abilities will be less required and that is where we could come in. I think our obsessive traits for example could be a a positive one when it comes to solving problems but I could be subscribing to a stereotypical view of autistics.
I find the fact that autistic people may be "wired" differently with fundamental differences in brain function exciting. You could certainly see how in hundreds or thousands of years we could diverge on a different evolutionary path if we have not already. |
|
| Back to top |
|
LTP
Raven
Joined: Jun 14, 2008
Age: 17
Posts: 122
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| pakled wrote: | oh yeah, sociobiology, or at least that's what it sounds like...
never read the book, but I'm familiar with the concept. You engage in altruistic or selfish behavior based on the advantages it gives you in passing your genes along to the future.
I dunno..I'd think the beta males; who are getting it on with the females while the alpha males are fighting for dominance... |
The book talked about how seemingly altruistic behavior is anything but. People like to be perceived as such because it gives them an edge in the breeding game. Small pleasantries act as a sort of social banking system. A short term investment of time and psychic energy can pay with dividends in the future etc. |
|
| Back to top |
|
CanyonWind
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 12, 2006
Posts: 1346
Location: West of the Great Divide
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Genes don't usually increase in frequency in a population when the individuals carrying them breed less than the overall average.
That's the standard view, anyway, but all science is tentative.
_________________
Yet could we turn the years again,
And call those exiles as they were
In all their loneliness and pain,
You'd cry, 'Some woman's yellow hair
Has maddened every mother's son.' -Yeats |
|
| Back to top |
|
LTP
Raven
Joined: Jun 14, 2008
Age: 17
Posts: 122
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| CanyonWind wrote: | Genes don't usually increase in frequency in a population when the individuals carrying them breed less than the overall average.
That's the standard view, anyway, but all science is tentative. |
Are we even positive that people on the autism spectrum breed less. I imagine people high up on the spectrum have a smaller chance of finding a mate but could there be enough threshold people who carry a autistic gene to keep it going?
I could see how in some environments autistic traits could lead to more financial success and more financial success=more available mates.
Just imagine how much money some women would pay for Bill Gates or Einsteins sperm. Those would be some very desirable genes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
twoshots
Honorary Vertebrate
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2115
Location: NJ
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LTP wrote: | | CanyonWind wrote: | Genes don't usually increase in frequency in a population when the individuals carrying them breed less than the overall average.
That's the standard view, anyway, but all science is tentative. |
Are we even positive that people on the autism spectrum breed less. I imagine people high up on the spectrum have a smaller chance of finding a mate but could there be enough threshold people who carry a autistic gene to keep it going?
I could see how in some environments autistic traits could lead to more financial success and more financial success=more available mates.
Just imagine how much money some women would pay for Bill Gates or Einsteins sperm. Those would be some very desirable genes. |
I consider the question of whether or not, given that autism is controlled by many genes, having such genes such that the degree of autism is "non pathological" is actually selected for, similar to the Sickle Cell Anemia thing (where being homozygous for SCE means certain doom but being heterozygous is advantageous, inasmuch as one is present in an environment where malaria is a significant enough threat), a very interesting question. That I have absolutely no clue as to the answer. I suppose to see that we'd probably need to evaluate the success of non-autistic relatives of people with ASDs, as these would be likely candidates for being only "kind of" on the spectrum. But then of course I have no idea if ASD presents continuously with normality or it can be said to be discrete and distinct.
As for people with full blown ASD, assuming its purely genetic, the genes are being selected against en masse. Any success of higher functioning individuals pales next to the general failure of most people with ASD in general.
As to CanyonWind's comment, the problem is more complicated than that. If everyone in the population breeds a lot but has horrible survival rates to maturity, then having fewer better children could be more advanatageous. Consider k/r strategies. Of course, in the modern context, there is so little to decrease likely fertility in the future beyond just breeding, that it seems that it is probably true that the people with the most bebehs will probably come to have their genes dominate.
As for the original question, I'm a big fan of The Moral Animal, as it was my introduction to evolutionary psychology, which I find interesting, even if I disagree with the author on some points IIRC.
(don't ask me, I know nothing about this...)
_________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill |
|
| Back to top |
|
LTP
Raven
Joined: Jun 14, 2008
Age: 17
Posts: 122
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| twoshots wrote: | | LTP wrote: | | CanyonWind wrote: | Genes don't usually increase in frequency in a population when the individuals carrying them breed less than the overall average.
That's the standard view, anyway, but all science is tentative. |
Are we even positive that people on the autism spectrum breed less. I imagine people high up on the spectrum have a smaller chance of finding a mate but could there be enough threshold people who carry a autistic gene to keep it going?
I could see how in some environments autistic traits could lead to more financial success and more financial success=more available mates.
Just imagine how much money some women would pay for Bill Gates or Einsteins sperm. Those would be some very desirable genes. |
I consider the question of whether or not, given that autism is controlled by many genes, having such genes such that the degree of autism is "non pathological" is actually selected for, similar to the Sickle Cell Anemia thing (where being homozygous for SCE means certain doom but being heterozygous is advantageous, inasmuch as one is present in an environment where malaria is a significant enough threat), a very interesting question. That I have absolutely no clue as to the answer. I suppose to see that we'd probably need to evaluate the success of non-autistic relatives of people with ASDs, as these would be likely candidates for being only "kind of" on the spectrum. But then of course I have no idea if ASD presents continuously with normality or it can be said to be discrete and distinct.
As for people with full blown ASD, assuming its purely genetic, the genes are being selected against en masse. Any success of higher functioning individuals pales next to the general failure of most people with ASD in general.
As to CanyonWind's comment, the problem is more complicated than that. If everyone in the population breeds a lot but has horrible survival rates to maturity, then having fewer better children could be more advanatageous. Consider k/r strategies. Of course, in the modern context, there is so little to decrease likely fertility in the future beyond just breeding, that it seems that it is probably true that the people with the most bebehs will probably come to have their genes dominate.
As for the original question, I'm a big fan of The Moral Animal, as it was my introduction to evolutionary psychology, which I find interesting, even if I disagree with the author on some points IIRC.
(don't ask me, I know nothing about this...) |
I don't think full-blown autism would be selected for of course but I think the idea of non-pathological autism worth investigating. I think some of our traits could lead to reproductive success. Our tendency to have obsessions come to mind. Being able to devote yourself religiously to your obsession could lead to success as long as it's directed towards something productive. Being obsessed with train schedules may not help you but applying that drive to mathematics or medicine could lead to success in those fields and more. Anthropolgical studies have shown that some hunter-gather societies have a fluid hierarchy that rewards inventiveness.
A tribe member who develops a new hunting method or discovers a new edible food would be rewarded with women, influence over tribal decisions and food. People on the autism spectrum have been praised for and received success for coming up with novel things. As external influences diminish(fear of extinction) and competition between humans becomes the biggest evolutionary force intellect or ingenuity may become more and more important. That extra bit of creativity could make or break you in such a hyper-competitive environment. Assuming of course your creativity compensates for a decrease in social skills and provides enough rewards(fame,money ingenuity) to make your genes worthwhile. |
|
| Back to top |
|
slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8640
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: Re: The Moral animal Why we are the way we are by robrt wrig |
|
|
| Quote: | | I would be interested in reading it...how do you think aspies fit into this social Darwinism theory. Flucks of genetic mutation or the New Breed? |
New Breed, you say? How long do you think Asperger Syndrome existed before Hans Asperger identified it? What's to say we aren't as old as the Old Breed itself?
New Breed ... I don't like it. Smacks of Nietzsche and Hitler. New Breed implies something recent and better than the orignal. Can you measure the worth of a human being with words like neuro-typical and austistic spectrum? I don't know that you can. |
|
| Back to top |
|
slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8640
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Just imagine how much money some women would pay for Bill Gates or Einsteins sperm. Those would be some very desirable genes. |
Sperm is no accurate or reliable purveyor of precise verbatim string of DNA. And even if it were, the incorrect assumption is that there are no other variables in the human equation. What if the kid born with Einstein's genes never survived past infancy? What if the kid with BIll Gates' DNA set himself on fire on and burned to death?
At best, it would be false advertizing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
twoshots
Honorary Vertebrate
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2115
Location: NJ
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | I don't think full-blown autism would be selected for of course but I think the idea of non-pathological autism worth investigating. I think some of our traits could lead to reproductive success. Our tendency to have obsessions come to mind. Being able to devote yourself religiously to your obsession could lead to success as long as it's directed towards something productive. Being obsessed with train schedules may not help you but applying that drive to mathematics or medicine could lead to success in those fields and more. Anthropolgical studies have shown that some hunter-gather societies have a fluid hierarchy that rewards inventiveness.
A tribe member who develops a new hunting method or discovers a new edible food would be rewarded with women, influence over tribal decisions and food. People on the autism spectrum have been praised for and received success for coming up with novel things. As external influences diminish(fear of extinction) and competition between humans becomes the biggest evolutionary force intellect or ingenuity may become more and more important. That extra bit of creativity could make or break you in such a hyper-competitive environment. Assuming of course your creativity compensates for a decrease in social skills and provides enough rewards(fame,money ingenuity) to make your genes worthwhile. |
The interest thing always strikes me as the most interesting part. As society becomes more progresses, one of the tendencies is specialization. That autistics have "islands of ability" seems almost an exaggeration of specialization; what if specialization were tied to autism? A trade in special abilities at the expense of social talent seems worth questioning... 
_________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill |
|
| Back to top |
|
Deus_ex_machina
Mudliquor
Joined: May 20, 2006
Age: 20
Posts: 1413
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| twoshots wrote: | | Quote: | I don't think full-blown autism would be selected for of course but I think the idea of non-pathological autism worth investigating. I think some of our traits could lead to reproductive success. Our tendency to have obsessions come to mind. Being able to devote yourself religiously to your obsession could lead to success as long as it's directed towards something productive. Being obsessed with train schedules may not help you but applying that drive to mathematics or medicine could lead to success in those fields and more. Anthropolgical studies have shown that some hunter-gather societies have a fluid hierarchy that rewards inventiveness.
A tribe member who develops a new hunting method or discovers a new edible food would be rewarded with women, influence over tribal decisions and food. People on the autism spectrum have been praised for and received success for coming up with novel things. As external influences diminish(fear of extinction) and competition between humans becomes the biggest evolutionary force intellect or ingenuity may become more and more important. That extra bit of creativity could make or break you in such a hyper-competitive environment. Assuming of course your creativity compensates for a decrease in social skills and provides enough rewards(fame,money ingenuity) to make your genes worthwhile. |
The interest thing always strikes me as the most interesting part. As society becomes more progresses, one of the tendencies is specialization. That autistics have "islands of ability" seems almost an exaggeration of specialization; what if specialization were tied to autism? A trade in special abilities at the expense of social talent seems worth questioning... |
Engineers of the Future perhaps? 
Pun intended. 
_________________
"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat." - Terry Bisson |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
