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Greentea
Bull in China Shop par Excellence!
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 2230
Location: Middle East
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 Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: So now that we KNOW.......how do we relate to people?? |
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Warning: this post / topic may not be something you want to hear about, you may want to skip it, especially the young Aspies. I'm only posting it here to give it more exposure than the In-Depth Adult Forum gets. So read at your own risk, and if you find it demoralizing, you've been forewarned.
My question is...now that I know that what I have is a hereditary, severe limitation in the ""social grasp"" area of functioning, and that it causes people to conclude I'm being purposefully oblivious of their (non-verbally expressed) needs, beliefs, requests, intent, wishes, etc., and that it causes them to act towards me with desdain and end up rejecting me..........how do I relate to people from now on?????
I mean, I don't intend to be so stupid to ignore my new findings and continue for another 46 years trying my excruciating best at relating and failing miserably at relations as it's been for these 46 years. It wouldn't be fair to continue demanding unattainable goals from myself for another half century, would it?
All comments, remarks and opinions on this topic are welcome!
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"It is the wounded oyster that mends its shell with pearl" - Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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computerlove
I don't smell bad, I smell MACHO
Joined: Jul 11, 2006
Posts: 3058
Location: Male, Mexico, Graphic Design
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Well man, how do you feel? Do you feel the same than 20 years ago? 10 years ago? 1 year ago?
I always find myself thinking that I feel/act younger than my age (30), BUT, even though I can't appreciate it fully, people have told me that I'm better now, socially speaking, than three or four years ago.
So, do you feel the same?
_________________
OCD is fun. - GoatOnFire
I got a Cuban Missile Crisis in my pants. - Kalister1
Social chitchat, I would rather have a non anestisized root canal. - Merle |
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makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 1991
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: |
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I don't have an complete, coherent answer to this. For myself, I've become more explicit in my explanations of what I am doing and way, and allowing myself greater freedom to express this part of myself. It is relaxing me greatly. I am more forgiving with most people with communication issues; more than that, I am more forgiving of myself, because I've always felt that I'm not getting something across - now I know what is missing and why. With those closest to me, there is still a lot of residual frustration and impatience that I am trying to defuse. I ask entirely too many questions. For the first time in my life, I can accept that I have some limitations... until now, that had been something near unattainable for me. Without some understanding, I couldn't acknowledge how much things affected me; only find ways to deflect and put off the reactions until I got through the experience. That process probably did more damage than anything; the mind is a remarkably powerful thing. But I digress... I forgive myself and others, I ask questions, I am learning to say things that seem blatantly obvious already, I recognize why I am reacting and try to adjust the situation to minimize my reactions. While it is possible that I can learn more on how to read and interpret others, it still won't change my responses - so I find it better to communicate, overly so if necessary, in order to better co-exist with those around me. I couch my responses as opinions, and speak even more formally than before... and I laugh about it. I don't know that my reaction is typical in any way, shape or form... I had gone without hope of any explanation for so long that it is a relief to know why I do what I do, that I am not alone, that when I have problems I can come here and read how someone else coped or even ask myself - and the answer will actually be relevant to the perspective I have of the world.
M.
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He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
From my heart and from my hand, why don't people understand my intentions...?
Why choose a lesser evil? Vote Cthulhu 2008! |
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Shelby
Deinonychus
Joined: May 01, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:17 am Post subject: |
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I get what you're saying. We supposedly only have 5 senses, but I think NTs have a sixth which is a social sense; an ability to read body language and facial expressions, to judge appropriate language and behavior in various situations, and to connect to others. We seem to be missing that sense. 
Since we don't have that sense, I think we need to use our other senses to try to put the social picture together. Just like a blind person's hearing becomes stronger to compensate, we need to develop our other senses for the one we lack. In other words, we need to watch and listen harder to figure out things like mood, tone, feelings etc.
So to answer your question "how do I relate to people from now on?????", maybe there's a few things to try to develop your social sense:
One technique they teach young autistics is to look at photos and figure out facial expressions. I think that's important for us. Most of us get the obvious expressions like smiling or frowning, but we miss the more subtle ones. I think there are some online games where you have to figure out facial expressions, maybe you can try those. Perhaps also try to figure out expressions on movies or TV, and watch people around you carefully.
Another really important thing that a lot of Aspies miss is to take interest in other people and what they are interested in. Often we like to talk about our obsessions (I know I do) which is boring for other people. My Aspie uncle likes to talk about himself all the time and it never even occurs to him to ask what someone else is doing. It can be boring, I have to admit I'm generally not terribly interested in hearing what others talk about (unless it's juicy ) but you'll find NTs really like to be asked about their jobs, their kids and they love it if you remember something about them eg. "Hey Susie, when does your son get back from America?" or "How was your softball game on Saturday?"
Picking up nonverbal wishes...well that's not exclusively a problem for Aspies. Women in particular often like to huff around sighing and expecting people to know what it is they want or are upset about. I don't think it's fair for anyone to be angry at you for not picking up on something they haven't actually said. But if you're more consciously aware to look for hidden signs in people, you might have more luck. Perhaps even tell people that you have a bit of a problem in that area and that they need to spell it out to you if they want something.
Good Luck! |
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Greentea
Bull in China Shop par Excellence!
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 2230
Location: Middle East
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:17 am Post subject: |
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Computerlove,
I fail even more. Maybe it's because in your forties, you're less likely to be let off the hook because you're still "young and impulsive" as I used to until my mid-thirties.
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"It is the wounded oyster that mends its shell with pearl" - Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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computerlove
I don't smell bad, I smell MACHO
Joined: Jul 11, 2006
Posts: 3058
Location: Male, Mexico, Graphic Design
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Greentea wrote: | Computerlove,
I fail even more. Maybe it's because in your forties, you're less likely to be let off the hook because you're still "young and impulsive" as I used to until my mid-thirties. |
Oh.
Damn.
All I can say is that the only way is up, one has to act more responsible, even if we hate to do something.
One has to live as if this is your second life and you messed up/screwed up your first life, and this is your second and last chance to do something good.
The "be fully independent/be fully responsible of your life" part is what has kept me away from thinking about forming a family or again having a girlfriend... because you're not only responsible of your life, but also of someone else, and that's a huge step... 
_________________
OCD is fun. - GoatOnFire
I got a Cuban Missile Crisis in my pants. - Kalister1
Social chitchat, I would rather have a non anestisized root canal. - Merle |
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LabPet
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 1749
Location: Alaska
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
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I don't know. I posted this list before, but I think it's very relevant for this topic. Maybe this will help? Courtesy of Dr. Temple Grandin and Sean Barron. After each 'Unwritten Rule' compiled by these authors, I wrote my interpretation. For another, this will differ, of course. I have this list posted on my apt. wall for reference.
By Dr. Temple Grandin and Sean Barron, Unwritten Rules (the list):
For Autistics, By Autistics
Rules are not absolute. They are situation-based and people-based
→ For me, this is hard since there is seemingly no logical pattern to social interaction; that is, each interaction is unique.
Not everything is equally important in the grand scheme of things
→ There is a hierarchy for others, but not for me. Still, I must be aware of this ‘unknown’ hierarchy and implications.
Everyone in the world makes mistakes. It doesn't have to ruin your day
→ For me, I am conscientious - to a fault! I struggle with confidence so if I feel my performance is not optimal, I feel.....sick. Not only, ‘don't let it ruin your day,’ but don't let it ruin your life! Plus, being autistic, there are simply things I cannot 'fix' about my way of being. I need not apologize for this to anyone ever.
Honesty is different from diplomacy
→ I am honest to a fault. I do care about others (and have empathy) but I think it's important to note that many NTs do not care so much about the truth, but instead just 'saying the right answer.'
Being polite is appropriate in every situation
→ For me, this is straightforward; I am well-mannered. However, I am shy. I am told, others can misinterpret my shyness as being offish - not my intent.
Not everyone who is nice to me is my friend
→ This one is hard for me. Again, I am honest. I interpret literally. If one is kind to me, I simply cannot conceive another may have ulterior motives. But they sometimes do. ‘Nice people' are not necessarily good people (!) and may have no real substance to them, except perhaps their ability to be superficially charming, even manipulative.
People act differently in public than in private
→ I need to realize that one who behaves nicely in a given situation (such as in a profession capacity) may be a really different person in another situation. I believe, for a an autistic, this duality exhibited by NTs can be tough to recognize.
Know when you're turning people off
→ Yes, sometimes hard. NTs can give you a superficial smile, nod, etc. but be thinking something quite different! I cannot 'read' another.
'Fitting in' is often tied to looking and sounding like you fit in
→ I had considered this....maybe 'phony (?),' but I think the true message is to be cognizant of surroundings and expectations, then adapting appropriately.
People are responsible for their own behaviors
→ For me, this one is major. I take everything personally (if the 'offender' is one who is influential), so I invariably feel HURT when another is behaving badly! I need to remember; it's not my fault if another is being mean.
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same nightmare, different nap
Lab Pet, therapist slayer
Lab Pet's video: Autism is Synonymous with Science: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYelVlA7kDw |
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Felinity
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Mar 03, 2008
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: |
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Hi GreenTea,
I've been grappling with that same question myself..
My therapist is telling me that I can still, even at my age -- which is around the same age as you, improve socially.. The key is in communicating that we don't quite understand so that others won't immediately get irritated because they think we are purposely ignoring their nonverbal communications...
Learning new ways to ask for clarification is another skill that I am slowly getting better at.. If I don't understand sarcasm... I'm trying to ask something like "were you being sarcastic? or are you really meaning, such and such?" Then, the other person will hopefully explain what they were trying to communicate.. If they don't have the patience to deal with us, then find people who do.. Often, I think, many people just don't realize that we don't understand or that we are just simply different.. They want to judge us based upon their rules of communication and they often can be quite ignorant that some people actually think differently and don't understand what they are trying to communicate.. Sometimes I ask people to rephrase something because I'm not understanding it.. instead of pretending like I understand.. Of course, these are people that are worth trying to communicate with.. There are some people who can't be trusted .. in that, they are much less tolerant of different people.. I would not even waste my time with people like that..
Another thing I'm trying to get better at is turning the conversation around to the other person.. almost like a talkshow host might do... keep the conversation focused on the other person.. that way, it's less stressful, I don't talk too much and then, I can relax and even look around the room at other people who I might want to try and talk with next..
I'm still able to learn new stuff, it's just slower... Granted, we can't be "cured", but by learning ways to better deal with this neurological difference and minimizing the misunderstandings that others have about us, we will have less stress in the long run and maybe even have more fun ; )
I'm still working on all of this.. trying to have more self-acceptance along the way too..
I'm glad you brought this subject up. Keep trying ; ) and sharing what you've learned along the way too.
Thanks.
L
Last edited by Felinity on Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Felinity
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Mar 03, 2008
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| Shelby wrote: | | I get what you're saying. We supposedly only have 5 senses, but I think NTs have a sixth which is a social sense; an ability to read body language and facial expressions, to judge appropriate language and behavior in various situations, and to connect to others. We seem to be missing that sense. |
That is so true Shelby...
Another thing I have noticed that really seems to be a 6th sense also, is the NTs' ability to sense "auras" of the people.. so that they know what distance to stand from a person... Some people have larger auras like celebrities or people with big egos.. others don't mind if you walk closer to them.. I am not able to sense this really at all.. There are even some people who claim to be able to see "auras"... that is what the NTs usually think of as a "6th sense".. They take it for granted and assume that all people can sense the appropriate distance to stand from others.. or that everyone can understand the same body language as they can.. It really is a form of "blindness" in the NT world...
I also have trouble processing many social cues at once and understanding all the sarcasm and witty comments flying back and forth between people in a group... I am generally lost in their conversations and can only follow parts of what they are communicating, similar to someone visiting a foreign country and not speaking the local language very well.. It's that ha... "Wrong Planet"- type feeling That really is a great name for this website.. It's just, how to learn to cope with this.. Someone once suggested maybe I would be better off actually moving to another country.. At least, then, they would just assume I'm not understanding what they are saying because it's probably a cultural difference.. instead of a neurological difference.. I still think about that idea sometimes...
Thanks for your ideas. I appreciate your suggestions on how to deal with being different and living in an NT-world.
L
(Diagnosed with NLD and ADHD) |
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Rynok
Velociraptor
Joined: Jun 11, 2008
Age: 23
Posts: 413
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| LabPet wrote: |
Not everyone who is nice to me is my friend
→ This one is hard for me. Again, I am honest. I interpret literally. If one is kind to me, I simply cannot conceive another may have ulterior motives. But they sometimes do. ‘Nice people' are not necessarily good people (!) and may have no real substance to them, except perhaps their ability to be superficially charming, even manipulative. |
I'm paranoid to a fault, because I know people have ulterior motives behind what they do...so I look for them (even when they don't exist).
| Shelby wrote: |
I get what you're saying. We supposedly only have 5 senses, but I think NTs have a sixth which is a social sense; an ability to read body language and facial expressions, to judge appropriate language and behavior in various situations, and to connect to others. We seem to be missing that sense.
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As far as NT's having a sixth sense of social awareness, I'd say I have a strengthened sense of analytical skills and the ability to mimic others to make up for it. Give me a situation, tell me how to act, and I can play my part just fine. (Works the same way if I've seen someone else in a similar situation, or if I've already gone through this situation in a hypothetical scenario. Movies and song lyrics are great for this!) I relate to people just the same way that they relate to me, via literal verbal communication primarily. While I do get a lot of the social stuff, the things I miss I consider it their job to keep me up to speed. If they say something and I don't get it, rephrase it and try again...or maybe try saying what they actually mean instead of beating around the bush.
Every year I look back on my life and I think, "Man, I didn't know anything last year!". That's because you learn from your mistakes and grow stronger for them. I'm constantly looking for ways to improve myself. If you are not improving yourself then you are losing ground. AS is not an excuse and shouldn't be treated as such. If I can't do something, I try harder. If that fails, I look for help from websites/friends/family on ways to fix the problem. Although life might have been easier as an NT, I have no way to know that and it doesn't matter anyhow so there is no use even thinking about it. That would be like considering how life would be different if I was only 6 inches taller. I'm not and never will be. You only get one life, make it the best you can.
If you look at social scenarios as a whole, you can live the majority of your life knowing just the basics of social interaction. Most people care on conversations that only touch the surface layer. These conversations are just smalltalk...ways to pass the time and share a joke or two. If it gets more serious than that, then you won't have to worry about them joking around or being sarcastic as its a serious subject and they will expect a serious answer. Relationships are a bit harder because you have a lower # of "encounters" in general (as compared to casual smalltalk or brief hallway gatherings for instance). If your in a relationship and they aren't understanding, then they probably weren't for you anyways.
There are rules to the social scene, and if you follow them you should be able to get by well enough.
Example:
Eye contact is not to be held for extended periods of time. Treat it like the sun...look and look away. (then look back)
As Shelby said, remember what other people tell you and bring it up next time you meet if you can. (use it as a conversation starter, not to interrupt an already flowing conversation)
If you say more than 3 sentences without them saying anything back (like "Yeah" and "Uh huh"), then wrap it up (in one sentence) and let them speak. |
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Greentea
Bull in China Shop par Excellence!
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 2230
Location: Middle East
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: |
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I'm reading attentively each post, thinking about them, and will keep this thread to refer to it in future too. Thank you everyone so far for your contributions.
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"It is the wounded oyster that mends its shell with pearl" - Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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Zonder
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Age: 44
Posts: 645
Location: Great Lakes
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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What an important thread, Greentea! Thanks for starting it.
I realized when I was thirteen that I was different, and learning how to appear to be like everyone else became an obsession. Having worked on it for thirty years I have some things that might be helpful.
1. I might be the only one who is fascinated by my particular areas of interest, so therefore I rarely talk about them, sometimes even if the subjects comes up. Avoiding talking about my expertise has one drawback - sometimes people don't realize how much I really know or am capable of, but at least I don't turn people off by incessantly talking about my topics.
2. It's difficult to make smalltalk if I ignore popular things in the world around me. I am indifferent to sports, and readily admit that, but I still try to know a little about what is going on in the sports world so I can respond if the topic comes up in conversation.
3. Learn what is acceptable to discuss in social conversations with people you don't know so well. I can have very strong opinions, but letting those opinions out in casual conversation is often not a good thing. The old adage of staying away from talking about religion and politics is still good advice. It's probably not a good thing to tell someone you barely know about Asperger Syndrome.
4. Others don't think like I think, so I don't judge their social responses to me on how I think they should respond. I've learned a lot about how and why people respond socially, and try not to be upset if others are responding in ways that are very different or opposite than what I feel to be appropriate or common sense.
5. I very seriously evaluate criticism of me. Some people criticize because they are just critical people, others to be helpful. I feel that it is important to analyze what has been said, ignore what is not true or helpful, and try to improve what I can, even if it is difficult. I think a lot of people are so hurt by what others say, that they are not able to see the positive aspect of criticism - it is an identification of things I might need to change.
Z |
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2ukenkerl
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 4620
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Shelby wrote: | | I get what you're saying. We supposedly only have 5 senses, but I think NTs have a sixth which is a social sense; an ability to read body language and facial expressions, to judge appropriate language and behavior in various situations, and to connect to others. We seem to be missing that sense. |
Everyone seems to talk like that is such a great thing, cut and dry, etc.....
I KNOW it is not a sense like you say!....
1. Taste -- definite, FITS A PATTERN, reliable within that pattern
2. Hearing -- definite, FITS A PATTERN, reliable within that pattern
3. Sight -- definite, FITS A PATTERN, reliable within that pattern
4. feel -- definite, FITS A PATTERN, reliable within that pattern
5. smell -- definite, FITS A PATTERN, reliable within that pattern
6. Social -- undefinable, FITS NO PATTERN, unreliable at best
I mean it isn't like I didn't go to dozens of places, and look at hundreds of sources for #6! Movies are made about problems ALL THE TIME! Whole societies have been changed, and people pay THOUSANDS, and join clubs, to try to "FIT IN"! So it is CLEARLY NOT a sense.
HECK, look at CLAM BAKE! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061489/usercomments?start=10
Even the opening SONG shows how superficial things can be, etc... It shows two people with two different problems. ONE has some trouble getting women because he is poor, and the other gets women that HE doesn't want because they are shallow and want him only because he is rich, and they trade the idea of being rich, etc....
I think it is FIRST because their actions/understandings/etc... fall within a certain set of parameters. We ALL know this. MOST here, if not all, have gotten better at this. If you are too far out of it, people will be IMMEDIATELY turned off. The more you fit, the longer you have to get everything else right. Parents try to help here! I think I do fairly well here.
Society has more things to follow, and the same rules apply. Parents try to help here! I think I do TOO well here.
There are certain ways you have to react to certain things. Parents may try to help, but some things require various understandings. This can be a full time job. There are a number of reasons why aspies fail. Maybe due to lack of interest, maybe due to lack of acceptance for the other 2, maybe because of slow reaction, etc... It isn't a sense though, and NTs aren't 100% either. I don't even TRY here.
Assumptions, handling of jokes, etc... has to fit certain guidelines. Same thing as #3, and I don't think I CAN do this well enough.
HECK, if it was as simple as you say, a lot of crime, rape, perversion would be GONE! Dating sites, planned marriages, etc,,,, would be GONE! Divorce would be almost non existant, etc.... NTs like to PRETEND they are so perfect here, but they AREN'T!
It is like Male Robins in the spring! They build their nest, go into plain sight, with their colorful red plumage, and chirp away to get a mate. NTs are like that! Some females SETTLE because they are close enough. *I* build a BETTER nest! I am shy, so I am not so far in plain sight, my colors may be a bit off, my song is a bit different, and they may ignore me. If they did land, I wouldn't even know how to direct them to the nest. |
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Greentea
Bull in China Shop par Excellence!
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 2230
Location: Middle East
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: |
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Once I had a flat mate from Spain, he was doing post-PhD research in Medicine in Jerusalem and I was a student too. His studies were in English. He never tried to learn Hebrew. He claimed that everyone spoke to him in English or knew some Spanish, so why bother. So he only ever got from his surroundings whatever was said in English or Spanish. He remained totally ignorant of anything else going on around him. Eventually, he became socially isolated.
Since I can't learn the (non-verbal) NT language, there'll always be crucial info that I'm not getting. Since people don't know that it's due to a hereditary disorder, they'll always hold it against me.
This is a given. That's why I'm asking how one relates to people in such a state of affairs, when now you know that the impending anger and rejection are inevitable.
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"It is the wounded oyster that mends its shell with pearl" - Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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Postperson
The Daughter of Indifference
Joined: Jul 10, 2004
Age: 51
Posts: 2808
Location: Uz
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| I work at acquiring humility - it seems to smooth over a lot of other differences or perceived abrasiveness. It's a likeable quality despite one's differences. |
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