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| Which Christian denomination do you belong to? |
| Baptist |
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12% |
[ 3 ] |
| Roman Catholic |
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33% |
[ 8 ] |
| Presbyterian |
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4% |
[ 1 ] |
| Orthodox Christian (as in Russian/Greek) |
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4% |
[ 1 ] |
| Methodist |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Non/Inter-denominational |
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8% |
[ 2 ] |
| Anglican and related |
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4% |
[ 1 ] |
| Fundmentalist |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Other |
|
33% |
[ 8 ] |
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| Total Votes : 24 |
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hurricaneseye
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jul 10, 2008
Posts: 73
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Which Christian denomination do you belong to? |
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I have listed various Christian denominations below. Vote for what you consider yourself to be.
I apologize if I didn't include your denomination.
_________________
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If you can, please visit my poetry page at http://www.poemhunter.com/john-parsons/. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 19
Posts: 4243
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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I belong to Presbyterianism, the one true form of Christianity.   Anyways, as a note about the options you listed: fundamentalist isn't really a denomination. Many Baptists are fundies, and other fundamentalists use the label "non-denominational" as a sort of smoke-screen.
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hurricaneseye
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jul 10, 2008
Posts: 73
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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I used fundamentalism as a blanket term for many movements (ex. being the Holiness movement).
And I could VERY well challenge Presbyterianism as the one true form of Christianity, thank you   . I don't see how God wants humanity to be a race of robots.
I also know about fundamentalist Baptists: I know PLENTY of them. Most of them, though, don't act on what they believe. Nondenominationalism is also popular where I live, so I included it.
_________________
-John
If you can, please visit my poetry page at http://www.poemhunter.com/john-parsons/. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 6120
Location: United States
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| hurricaneseye wrote: |
And I could VERY well challenge Presbyterianism as the one true form of Christianity, thank you . I don't see how God wants humanity to be a race of robots.
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The issue is coming up with a good, logically consistent counterpart to Calvinism. Free will is nice, but how is it really free if every free act has been accounted and planned for? Can a choice be free if it's result can be known with 100% certitude before hand? As freedom seems to entail an ability to choose otherwise, but the theoretical knowledge on the future seems to prohibit that. |
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hurricaneseye
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jul 10, 2008
Posts: 73
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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God is a loving father to all humanity. Much like an earthly father that knows his children all too well, he knows all of our actions before hand. BUT since God has a free will, and since He wants us to be like Him, he wants us to have the same freedom of will.
Human nature is naturally in tune with God's will. But through sin, God's image within us has been stained, but not destroyed. As such, human beings are microcogisms of God. So if predestination were true, then God would also be a robot, like the people he has created.
_________________
-John
If you can, please visit my poetry page at http://www.poemhunter.com/john-parsons/. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 6120
Location: United States
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| hurricaneseye wrote: | | God is a loving father to all humanity. Much like an earthly father that knows his children all too well, he knows all of our actions before hand. BUT since God has a free will, and since He wants us to be like Him, he wants us to have the same freedom of will. |
Earthly fathers do not know their children that well, certainly not well enough to tell their actions in advance of their conception, and certainly not powerful enough to address each and every action as it occurs. How do we know that God has a free will? Isn't he the fullest of goods? Doesn't this then mean he must, by his nature, always act to maximize goodness?
| Quote: |
Human nature is naturally in tune with God's will. But through sin, God's image within us has been stained, but not destroyed. As such, human beings are microcogisms of God. So if predestination were true, then God would also be a robot, like the people he has created. |
If human nature is naturally in tune, then how come there are none righteous as said in Romans? How come the idolators in Isaiah cannot save themselves? How come it is said that good men act good as evil men act evil, for actions are merely expressions of the heart? Finally, who says that God isn't a robot? I mean, really, how does the acausal will of a libertarian free will view make sense? We may have a reason for a particular action, but the choice between actions is ultimately arbitrary, and why would we ascribe arbitrariness to God, the greatest good? Is good then arbitrary? |
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hurricaneseye
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jul 10, 2008
Posts: 73
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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I was referring to the Progidal Son. He ran off angry from his father, and came back in repentance. This is symbolic of humanity returning to God through Christ.
Regardless of the sins of humanity, we are NOT totally depraved. We are made in His image, and that can never be destroyed.
Say I ordered an Amtrak ticket from Dallas to New York to run away from my parents. Say I got on the train, and ran away from them. Even though I'm effectively seperated from them, I am still their creation, aren't I? I'm still a mix of their DNA chorosomes, even though I would still be hating them.
Your reference to Romans 3:10 is St. Paul saying that Jew and non-Jew alike are affected by sin. This verse has nothing to do with depravity.
As for Isiaiah, the Prophet was saying that the idolators (like everyone else) are in need of God's mercy. He wasn't saying that God predestines people, he was saying that all need to turn to God in repentance.
As for the last verse you mentioned, people change. Whether or not you are a sinner doesn't stay in a fixed state. I can tell you right now that when I was young, I could have cared less about the ways of God. I even fell for the new age craze (which is a whole other topic) after personal tragedies in my life made me feel that God had abadoned me. And here I am debating free will with you. And I must also mention people like St. Paul himself.
And God can't possibly be a robot, for God is love. If he was a robot, he couldn't love humanity. He would see everything as a system of laws and be a merciless judge. But he CHOSE to love humanity. He could have been that judge if he wanted to. But no. He decided to be the essence of goodness that He is and love us. And he opened the door for us to love Him in return THROUGH CHRIST.
_________________
-John
If you can, please visit my poetry page at http://www.poemhunter.com/john-parsons/. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 6120
Location: United States
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| hurricaneseye wrote: |
Your reference to Romans 3:10 is St. Paul saying that Jew and non-Jew alike are affected by sin. This verse has nothing to do with depravity. |
No, it has plenty to do with depravity as it is Romans 3:10-18, and extends much further than a claim of everyone is affected by sin, as it makes clear that everyone sins.
| Quote: | | As for Isiaiah, the Prophet was saying that the idolators (like everyone else) are in need of God's mercy. He wasn't saying that God predestines people, he was saying that all need to turn to God in repentance. |
I was referring to Isaiah 44:20, where he talks about how idolators cannot know to turn away from their idols.
| Quote: | | As for the last verse you mentioned, people change. Whether or not you are a sinner doesn't stay in a fixed state. I can tell you right now that when I was young, I could have cared less about the ways of God. I even fell for the new age craze (which is a whole other topic) after personal tragedies in my life made me feel that God had abadoned me. And here I am debating free will with you. And I must also mention people like St. Paul himself. |
People do change, and no view argues against that. The issue is that referring to a nature rather than to will. If action are by nature, then free will is not the source of action. The verse implies that nature is the source of action. This is not a denial of change or anything like that, only a statement of the source of action.
| Quote: |
And God can't possibly be a robot, for God is love. If he was a robot, he couldn't love humanity. He would see everything as a system of laws and be a merciless judge. But he CHOSE to love humanity. He could have been that judge if he wanted to. But no. He decided to be the essence of goodness that He is and love us. And he opened the door for us to love Him in return THROUGH CHRIST. |
But, you are making assumptions on the nature of love. If God was a robot, and we were robots, then all things referred to as love would be in regards to robots. If God *IS* love, then God cannot choose NOT TO love, for that would be a denial of his own being. A God who is love but does not have love would be a non-existent being, so therefore, God *must* love, which means that as your terminology goes, God is a love-bot. He is programmed to love, and could never stop doing so. He also cannot choose to be good, for he is good by nature. If he could choose not to be good, then good would be alien to him, but he is the creator of all things, so good must either be his creation or in his nature, with many Christians claiming the latter. |
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hurricaneseye
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jul 10, 2008
Posts: 73
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Romans 3:10-18 is a quote from the Old Testament, before the Jews knew Jesus. All they knew was the Law. For them, God was Law. But Christ came to show God as Love. So that perspective is useless.
Isiaiah 44:20 is saying that all the idolators around him know is idolatry. God wanted them to repent, but they didn't know how, because that is all they knew. If God did not want them to repent, he would of created them so He can torture them in the world to come. That would make God a torturer, and He would be creating people just to send them to Hell.
The soul naturally yearns for God, for God creates souls (along with everything else). But some people choose to ignore this yearning to go their own way. God accepts their choice for like Him, we are free. But in the world to come, everyone will be with God. But here's the thing: for those who loved God, that is all they could ever want. But for those who rejected him, they will be in Hell, since God is the very contradiction of the way they live. Thus, "the fires of Hell are the Love of God".
Your last objection ties in with the above. We are called to love "as God loves", and this is the calling of every person on the planet. And it is the natural way of life, as Adam and Eve lived like this until the Fall. But they chose to ignore God and do what they want. God could have sent Adam and Eve to Hell as soon as they ate the apple. But he was loving, merciful and forgiving, and banished them from Eden instead. HE CHOSE LOVE, AND GIVES US THE SAME EXACT CHOICE, FOR WE ARE CREATED IN HIS IMAGE.
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-John
If you can, please visit my poetry page at http://www.poemhunter.com/john-parsons/. |
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hurricaneseye
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jul 10, 2008
Posts: 73
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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I must also say that yes, everyone sins. But we are in a sinful world, where sin becomes much easier. It is our calling to restore humanity to what was before the fall, and even advance from there. We are partakers of Divine Nature, and can go beyond Adam and Eve in holiness. We can become one with God in energy. And since we are called to imitate God, and since every one sins, then God must also sin, as we are called to be like Him. Thus, according to Calvinism, God is a legalistic hypocrite. God didn't make humanity just so it could rebel aganist Him.
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-John
If you can, please visit my poetry page at http://www.poemhunter.com/john-parsons/. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 6120
Location: United States
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| hurricaneseye wrote: | | Romans 3:10-18 is a quote from the Old Testament, before the Jews knew Jesus. All they knew was the Law. For them, God was Law. But Christ came to show God as Love. So that perspective is useless. |
Well, the issue is that the old law did not just disappear and Paul quotes that and other parts of the Old Testament a sign of it's continued vitality.
| Quote: | | Isiaiah 44:20 is saying that all the idolators around him know is idolatry. God wanted them to repent, but they didn't know how, because that is all they knew. If God did not want them to repent, he would of created them so He can torture them in the world to come. That would make God a torturer, and He would be creating people just to send them to Hell. |
Why not?
| Quote: | | The soul naturally yearns for God, for God creates souls (along with everything else). But some people choose to ignore this yearning to go their own way. God accepts their choice for like Him, we are free. But in the world to come, everyone will be with God. But here's the thing: for those who loved God, that is all they could ever want. But for those who rejected him, they will be in Hell, since God is the very contradiction of the way they live. Thus, "the fires of Hell are the Love of God". |
Ah, but we have fallen, and this has had real consequences as can be seen in Genesis all the way to the New Testament. After all, sin came in through one man as also said in Romans. Not only that, but still, you have not proved freedom and I still would argue that there are logical problems with it.
| Quote: |
Your last objection ties in with the above. We are called to love "as God loves", and this is the calling of every person on the planet. And it is the natural way of life, as Adam and Eve lived like this until the Fall. But they chose to ignore God and do what they want. God could have sent Adam and Eve to Hell as soon as they ate the apple. But he was loving, merciful and forgiving, and banished them from Eden instead. HE CHOSE LOVE, AND GIVES US THE SAME EXACT CHOICE, FOR WE ARE CREATED IN HIS IMAGE. |
Well, no, because God *is* love. If God *is* love, then he must act according to love. If he fails then he contradicts himself. You are making assertions about things.
| Quote: | | I must also say that yes, everyone sins. But we are in a sinful world, where sin becomes much easier. It is our calling to restore humanity to what was before the fall, and even advance from there. We are partakers of Divine Nature, and can go beyond Adam and Eve in holiness. We can become one with God in energy. And since we are called to imitate God, and since every one sins, then God must also sin, as we are called to be like Him. Thus, according to Calvinism, God is a legalistic hypocrite. |
Umm.... no. The claim that everyone sins, is in reference to people. If you look at Romans 3:10-18, the passage I was using, a number of those claims were in reference to a relation to God that God himself cannot hold, and a number of physical traits that God cannot have. Thus, your theological argument is a misunderstanding at best, and bastardization at worst. As according to Calvinism, God is God, and he is holy and perfect, while man is neither. You can make strawmen all you want, but that is not a good step towards generating a good, consistent theology. |
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hurricaneseye
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jul 10, 2008
Posts: 73
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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The Romans 3:10-18 matter is an issue of perspective. All the Hebrews knew of God WAS the Law. But, like I've said, Christ came to show another perspective.
I would really like to know why you say "why not?". God creating people just to send them to Hell would be like someone having children just to eventually kill them.
And the fall has had consquences. But the quote "all have sinned in Adam" is an accidental mistranslation of the Greek when St. Jerome was compiling the Vulgate. Plus for Adam he sinned, then experienced death. But for us, we inherited Adam's morality from him, not the guilt. That would be like executing a son of a serial killer, even though the son did nothing illegal. Sin and guilt are not genetic.
And, no I am not making assertations. I'm basing this on my belief that since God loves, and we are a microcogism of Him, we by nature love as well. But, God didn't want robots. So he gave us choice, or free will.
It is well established by now that God is love. And part of love is forgiveness and unconditionality of that forgiveness. Thus, God letting the sin of Adam affect us thousands of years later would be unfair. And since Calvinism says all have sinned in Adam (despite modern scholars realizing a misinterpretation) that implies that God is not very loving.
Romans 3:10-18 is a quote from Psalm 14, which begins: "The FOOL has said in his heart..." David was referring to people who ignored God, and not humanity as a whole. It is a quote from Psalm 53, and also starts the same way (keep in mind I'm using Psalm numbering from the Septugiant translation, to avoid confusion about which psalms we are referring to).
I don't consider my thoughts on Calvinism to be a misunderstanding (or worse). It is my way of thinking, and to me, God making everyone sin through the fall is inconsistent with what He wants from us (which, regardless of belief, is very little). I apologize if you took my comments personally. That is just my sense of reasoning.
And please, don't accuse me of making strawmen. When I became Orthodox two years ago, it was very controversial in my family, and I've fought hard for what I believe.
I have to go now. Bye! See you tomorrow!
_________________
-John
If you can, please visit my poetry page at http://www.poemhunter.com/john-parsons/. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 6120
Location: United States
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| hurricaneseye wrote: | | The Romans 3:10-18 matter is an issue of perspective. All the Hebrews knew of God WAS the Law. But, like I've said, Christ came to show another perspective. |
Well, Christ showed that love was the fulfillment of the law.
| Quote: | | I would really like to know why you say "why not?". God creating people just to send them to Hell would be like someone having children just to eventually kill them. |
So? You mean, you aren't planning on killing your offspring?
| Quote: | | And the fall has had consquences. But the quote "all have sinned in Adam" is an accidental mistranslation of the Greek when St. Jerome was compiling the Vulgate. Plus for Adam he sinned, then experienced death. But for us, we inherited Adam's morality from him, not the guilt. That would be like executing a son of a serial killer, even though the son did nothing illegal. Sin and guilt are not genetic. |
Well, I did not say "original guilt", I meant original sin. I was referring to Romans 5:12, where we did inherit the issue of morality. Also, in the bible, there are mentionings of vengeance against lineages as noted in Numbers 14:18 " visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.'"
| Quote: | | And, no I am not making assertations. I'm basing this on my belief that since God loves, and we are a microcogism of Him, we by nature love as well. But, God didn't want robots. So he gave us choice, or free will. |
Yes, you are. Free will is an assertion that you have never justified.
| Quote: | | It is well established by now that God is love. And part of love is forgiveness and unconditionality of that forgiveness. Thus, God letting the sin of Adam affect us thousands of years later would be unfair. And since Calvinism says all have sinned in Adam (despite modern scholars realizing a misinterpretation) that implies that God is not very loving. |
No, Calvinism says that all men are doomed to their sin. Not that they all have sin from Adam. The doctrine of Total Depravity means that people have a corrupted nature such that they cannot save themselves. I do not think that modern Calvinism holds to prenatal sin to any great extent.
| Quote: | | Romans 3:10-18 is a quote from Psalm 14, which begins: "The FOOL has said in his heart..." David was referring to people who ignored God, and not humanity as a whole. It is a quote from Psalm 53, and also starts the same way (keep in mind I'm using Psalm numbering from the Septugiant translation, to avoid confusion about which psalms we are referring to). |
Partially so. However, the notion that all people commit sin is throughout the NT. This can be noted by 1 John 1:8 and 1:10. So, basically it is true that all people sin at least once, so there is no choice but to sin at least once because the counterfactual, of never sinning is impossible.
I don't consider my thoughts on Calvinism to be a misunderstanding (or worse). It is my way of thinking, and to me, God making everyone sin through the fall is inconsistent with what He wants from us (which, regardless of belief, is very little). I apologize if you took my comments personally. That is just my sense of reasoning.
| Quote: | | And please, don't accuse me of making strawmen. When I became Orthodox two years ago, it was very controversial in my family, and I've fought hard for what I believe. |
Ok, well, you are making strawmen. I am not saying that you are completely dishonest or anything like that, however, Calvinism is hardly the frail theological beast that you describe it as, and there are prominant modern Calvinist intellectuals. I know about Orthodoxy though, I had a friend who flirted with the idea of converting to an Eastern Orthodox religion in the past. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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It is said that Jesus has come down on earth, and is with us now.
Full of latin flavor.
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I'm no democRAT, I'm a republiCAN! |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 19
Posts: 4243
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | Quote: | | It is well established by now that God is love. And part of love is forgiveness and unconditionality of that forgiveness. Thus, God letting the sin of Adam affect us thousands of years later would be unfair. And since Calvinism says all have sinned in Adam (despite modern scholars realizing a misinterpretation) that implies that God is not very loving. |
No, Calvinism says that all men are doomed to their sin. Not that they all have sin from Adam. The doctrine of Total Depravity means that people have a corrupted nature such that they cannot save themselves. I do not think that modern Calvinism holds to prenatal sin to any great extent. |
If I'm not mistaken, the concept of original sin is present in almost every variant of Christianity, not just Calvinism. Even in Eastern Orthodoxy the idea is found in a watered-down form, where the world is seen as "fallen." Where Calvinism probably differs more from beliefs such as Eastern Orthodoxy or Arminianism is the concept of TOTAL depravity, that is, it is beyond man's power to save himself. Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." How can anyone be responsible for their own salvation when humans are so impotent? We need the grace of God for salvation. Calvinism also differs in how one may respond to grace: I don't know much about Eastern Orthodoxy, but I know Arminians believe people are free to reject the gift of grace. But how could this be? Are humans able simply to flout the will of the Lord? Can any man claim such power as that? Once God decides He want to save someone, He will succeed. To say otherwise is to claim that God is capable of failure, which doesn't fit well with claims of omnipotence. God could not possibly be thwarted by His own creations.Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonemnt, Irresistible grace, Perseverance of the saints. BTW, in reference to my earlier tongue-in-cheek comment about Prebyterianism being the "one true form" of Christianity, I would like to mention my AP European History book and it's treatment of Calvin. It credits him with introducing "the most compelling form of Protestant Christianity." As far as non-Protestant forms of Christianity, the book seems to take an unfavorable view of Catholicism and is mildly dismissive of Orthodoxy.
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