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Khan_Sama
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Age: 19
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Location: India
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 Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: Zionism and Judaism are complete opposites. |
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The fact is that Jews, according to Rabbinic literature, went into exile for their sins, and are not allowed to re-establish Israel without their Messiah. Any attempt to do so is a violation of divine will. There are many Jews who support this view, mainly the Neturei Karta, which is headquartered in Jerusalem. While this does not mean that Jews are forbidden from emigrating to Palestine, they are just forbidden from re-establishing a Jewish state in Palestine.
Wikipedia - Neturei Karta
Wikipedia - Haredim and Zionism |
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velodog
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Posts: 1251
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| You defining Judaism and Zionism for the Jew Zionists makes as much sense to me as G.W.Bush, a nominally Christian President, defining Islam (remember "Religion of Peace", tell it to Van Gogh) for the Muslims. Do you really think Theodor Herzl would have gotten any traction with the publication of Der Judenstaat if the Jews had said "Hey lets let the Muslims determine what resonates with us!", probably not. Now that I have postulated what the Jews did not do in 1891 how about you now explaining why you think the Zionists will abandon their conquest of Israel, or Palestine if you prefer, because you have made the effort to redefine their religious practices and belief systems for them. Get real, there is so much sh** not in the Bible that Christians believe (take your pick, rapture/rupture,(un)Holy Trinity etc.), try to take that away from them and see how far it goes. |
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sartresue
Radical Aspergian
Joined: Dec 19, 2007
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Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: Zionism and Judaism are complete opposites |
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Defining the terminology topic
Khan_Sama has a point. One can be a Jew without being a Zionist, but of course, nearly all Zionists are Jews. Therefore, these terms are not completely synonymous.
The Ultra Orthodox sect members pictured above do not 'recognize' the State of Israel. They are waiting for the Messiah to come to bring about this Land. God will apparently have his hand in all of this. In the meantime, they wait for Him.
I had no idea they were pro-Palestinian. They have a right to protest if Palestinians are being mistreated. This humanitarianism is part of Judaism. They are following their faith.
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DevilInPgh
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Age: 24
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Sartresue:
That group is the infamous Neturei Karta. They have been known for taking money from Yasser Arafat and meeting Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at his "Holocaust Denial" conference. For that last reason, even the non-Zionist Edah Charedit excommunicated them (or rather, put them into "cherem"). They are way outside common sense, and even the anti-Zionist Satmar Chassidim won't count them in a minyan. |
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0_equals_true
Quack!
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 26
Posts: 4747
Location: London
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Zionism and Judaism are complete opposites |
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| sartresue wrote: | Defining the terminology topic
Khan_Sama has a point. One can be a Jew without being a Zionist, but of course, nearly all Zionists are Jews. Therefore, these terms are not completely synonymous.
The Ultra Orthodox sect members pictured above do not 'recognize' the State of Israel. They are waiting for the Messiah to come to bring about this Land. God will apparently have his hand in all of this. In the meantime, they wait for Him.
I had no idea they were pro-Palestinian. They have a right to protest if Palestinians are being mistreated. This humanitarianism is part of Judaism. They are following their faith. |
Well before the 30s zionism was not the main stream view, in fact most jews were opposed to it. |
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sartresue
Radical Aspergian
Joined: Dec 19, 2007
Posts: 2169
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: Zionism and Judeaism are complete opposites. |
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| DevilInPgh wrote: | Sartresue:
That group is the infamous Neturei Karta. They have been known for taking money from Yasser Arafat and meeting Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at his "Holocaust Denial" conference. For that last reason, even the non-Zionist Edah Charedit excommunicated them (or rather, put them into "cherem"). They are way outside common sense, and even the anti-Zionist Satmar Chassidim won't count them in a minyan. |
Not Kosher topic
Thanks for the information. It saddens me that these Jews are undermining peace, when they could have been so much more. 
Just when you thought it was safe... 
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skafather84
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
conspiracies abound on the page but there is definitely a movement of judaism that doesn't believe in zionism. |
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velodog
Gold Supporter
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Posts: 1251
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Zionism and Judaism are complete opposites |
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| sartresue wrote: | Defining the terminology topic
Khan_Sama has a point. One can be a Jew without being a Zionist, but of course, nearly all Zionists are Jews. Therefore, these terms are not completely synonymous. |
I agree with the above statement and in rereading my post from last night it looks more confrontational than necessary. I'll stand by my point that from a pragmatic point of view defining other peoples religion or political views for them is an exercise in futility and leave it at that. I'm leaving this forum for a while, these discussions bring out the worse in me. |
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skafather84
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| DevilInPgh wrote: | Sartresue:
That group is the infamous Neturei Karta. They have been known for taking money from Yasser Arafat and meeting Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at his "Holocaust Denial" conference. For that last reason, even the non-Zionist Edah Charedit excommunicated them (or rather, put them into "cherem"). They are way outside common sense, and even the anti-Zionist Satmar Chassidim won't count them in a minyan. |
In December 2006, members of Neturei Karta, including Yisroel Dovid Weiss, attended the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust, a controversial conference being held in Tehran, Iran that attracted a number of high-profile Holocaust-deniers.[25]
Weiss's speech, as presented in the audio recording of the conference, contained the following statement about the Holocaust:
"The holocaust is something which is, I believe, (and I’ve heard many speakers here say) is something which is very hard to say that the Jewish people did not suffer. I mean somebody has to be, I think, either very very embittered or a person who doesn’t want to open his mind to study, to say that the Jewish people weren’t exterminated. The fact is that there were millions and millions of Jewish people living in Europe before World War II. Poland, the statistics say around 3 million, and Hungary there was over half a million, maybe close to a million and you go through Slovakia, Czechoslovakia, Romania and Ukraine, they were all full of Jewish people, full of Jewish communities and today they don’t exist. And almost nobody tries to refute that. It would be ridiculous to refute it because the fact is, the Jewish people were there and now they are not there.
Now maybe I can say that at the discussion of the holocaust, I may be the representative, the voice of the people who died in the holocaust because my grandparents died there. They were killed in Auschwitz. My parents were from Hungary. My father escaped and his parents remained. He wasn’t able to get them out of Hungary and they died in Auschwitz as were other relatives and all the communities that they knew. So to say that they didn’t die, to me you can not say that. I am the living remnant of the people who died in the holocaust and I am here, I believe sent by God, to humbly say, simply to speak to the people here and say, 'you should know that the Jewish people died, and do not try to say that it did not happen. They did die.' There are people throughout the Jewish communities, still alive in their seventies and eighties and every one of them will tell you their stories. It is something which you cannot refute, but that being said, it doesn’t mean that the holocaust is a tool to use to oppress other people.
Weiss states that though Israelis have used the Holocaust to gain sympathy and advantage, he does not believe the Holocaust toll is exaggerated.[10] Weiss said that "The Zionists use the Holocaust issue to their benefit. We, Jews who perished in the Holocaust, do not use it to advance our interests. We stress that there are hundreds of thousands Jews around the world who identify with our opposition to the Zionist ideology and who feel that Zionism is not Jewish, but a political agenda...What we want is not a withdrawal to the '67 borders, but to everything included in it, so the country can go back to the Palestinians and we could live with them..." |
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skafather84
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| DevilInPgh wrote: | | even the non-Zionist Edah Charedit excommunicated them (or rather, put them into "cherem"). |
Rabbi Yonah Metzger, the chief Ashkenazi Rabbi of Israel, immediately called for those who went to Tehran to be put into 'cherem', a form of excommunication. [28] Subsequently a group of Rabbis claiming to represent part of the recently split anti-Zionist Satmar Hasidic group called on Jews to “to keep away from them and condemn their actions”. [29] However the newspaper 'Der Blatt' which represents the largest part of the Satmar group refused to denounce the actions of Neturei Karta In addition Neturei Karta claim that the late Rabbi Avrohom Leitner, one of the major Poskim (Halcachic decisors) of Brooklyn's large Satmar community publicly supported their activities.
On Thursday, December 21, the Edah HaChareidis rabbinical council of Jerusalem also released a statement calling on the public to distance itself from those who went to Iran. The Edah's statement followed, in major lines, the Satmar statement released a few days earlier [30]
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looks like the people who immediately and most loudly called for the cherem were those who benefited politically from it: zionists within israel.
also looks like they were there to rebuke the holocaust deniers and try to mend a peace with the muslims.
like i said before, the zionists have a VERY good public relations base. |
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crackedpleasures
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Joined: Oct 14, 2007
Posts: 1689
Location: travelling (currently Berlin, longing for the Middle East)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:28 am Post subject: |
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You could say Zionist Jews are a subdivision of Jews. Obviously Zionists are Jews, but many Jews are not zionist and anti-Israel. I know a few of them, they are jewish and proud to be, but they wish to have nothing to do with Israel. Also, bear in mind the term Jew is already debatable, if your mother is jewish you are considered jewish even if you declare to be atheist.
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DrizzleMan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:24 am Post subject: |
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It's a useless discussion unless everyone can agree on the terms.
What does it mean to be Jewish? Orthodox? Conservative? Reform? Reconstructionist? Ethnically?
What does it mean to be Zionist? To support the idea of a safe haven for Jews? To support a homeland specifically in Israel? To say the homeland must be a Jewish state? To support a state in Israel next to a Palestinian state? To support a state in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza with no Palestinian state?
What does it mean to be anti-Israel? To disagree with the government's actions? To believe the country should be destroyed? To believe Israelis should all be killed?
| crackedpleasures wrote: | | Obviously Zionists are Jews |
Even by the most right-wing definition of Zionist, there are plenty of Christian Zionists, especially in America.
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crackedpleasures
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Location: travelling (currently Berlin, longing for the Middle East)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| DrizzleMan wrote: | It's a useless discussion unless everyone can agree on the terms.
What does it mean to be Jewish? Orthodox? Conservative? Reform? Reconstructionist? Ethnically?. |
The definition in religious terms varies from the definition the state of Israel uses to decide who can use the Law of Return (granting citizenship to all Jews wishing to relocate to Israel).
In theory every child of a jewish woman is a Jew, even if he is atheist in practice.
Some religious scholars have stricter rules but this is the actual theory.
The state of Israel will usually recognise converted jews who converted through reform Judaism as well, while those people are not considered jewish by the orthodox scholars as they did not convert through the traditional way. The state of Israel will most of the time use a more relaxed approach to this issue.
Yes, the definition of who is jewish is not at all that clear. It is not as easy as with other religions because there is the Jewish race and the jewish religion. Someone of the race is not necessarily someone of the Judaism religion.
PS: if you wish to convert, go for reform judaism. Then the rabbi will not cut you 
| DrizzleMan wrote: |
What does it mean to be Zionist? To support the idea of a safe haven for Jews? To support a homeland specifically in Israel? To say the homeland must be a Jewish state? To support a state in Israel next to a Palestinian state? To support a state in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza with no Palestinian state?
What does it mean to be anti-Israel? To disagree with the government's actions? To believe the country should be destroyed? To believe Israelis should all be killed?. |
Zionist in the original way (as described in Der Judenstaat and in Herzl's theories) is wanting a jewish homeland, a jewish state.
Many Israeli's I spoke with consider a Zionist someone who explicitly wishes the jewish state to be in the old land of Israel. Hence the term Zionist, expressing the desire for a return to Zion. The national anthem (which used to be a zionist anthem written by Imber, a very secular jew) literally sings about the hope to return to "eretz Ziyon Yerushalaim" (land of Zion and Jerusalem)
So Zionist in its first meaning = someone wanting a jewish state.
Zionist in more common meaning = someone supporting a jewish state in the old land of Israel.
(PS: Land of Israel was a biblical state, and does not have the same borders are the current Israel, hence why upon independance in 1948 the state was called State of Israel and not Land of Israel, to avoid confusion with the ancient Israel)
| DrizzleMan wrote: |
| crackedpleasures wrote: | | Obviously Zionists are Jews |
Even by the most right-wing definition of Zionist, there are plenty of Christian Zionists, especially in America. |
Agreed, I stand corrected.
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skafather84
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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actually, i wouldn't be surprised if the largest group of zionists were christians.
zionism is a political movement. not a religious movement.....unless you view in the same light as manifest destiny...but many people have come out against that one. |
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Khan_Sama
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly. I am not against Jews settling in the Levant, I believe they have every right to do so, especially after centuries of persecution. I am against them doing the same to people who sheltered them for those centuries. I hate the fact that they are responsible for creating the largest refugee group in the world, denying them certain rights, excluding Arab-Israelis. I personally support the one-state solution. If Jews have the right to return, why not the Palestinian refugees?
Zionism is an attrocious ideology. |
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