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Traiken
Butterfly
Joined: Jun 13, 2008
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: Is empathy required for lying? |
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| I ask because, in general, I have a fairly easy time lying, but I don't feel like (for me) it's really anything to do with empathy. It's just simple black box/knowledge tracking. If the person does not have knowledge or is not likely to (they had no opportunity to acquire it), then if you want to give them the wrong knowledge, all you do is mention the wrong knowledge the same way you would the correct knowledge. As long as the logic with all their other assumed/known knowledge is correct, it shouldn't be recognizable as different from the true knowledge - that is, there is no logical test the black box can perform on the known inputs to discern falsehood. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: |
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Theory of mind is required for lying. Empathy, liars can do without just fine.
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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 642
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:33 am Post subject: Re: Is empathy required for lying? |
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| Traiken wrote: | | I ask because, in general, I have a fairly easy time lying, but I don't feel like (for me) it's really anything to do with empathy. It's just simple black box/knowledge tracking. If the person does not have knowledge or is not likely to (they had no opportunity to acquire it), then if you want to give them the wrong knowledge, all you do is mention the wrong knowledge the same way you would the correct knowledge. As long as the logic with all their other assumed/known knowledge is correct, it shouldn't be recognizable as different from the true knowledge - that is, there is no logical test the black box can perform on the known inputs to discern falsehood. |
A falsehood is a fallacy is it not?
Unhappy to say I lie a lot too. I don't know if it has anything to do with "lacking empathy". I tend to rationalize a lie somehow though and it's never over anything I consider really serious. This would mean I lack empathy for the person I am lying to.
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Age: 28
Posts: 1395
Location: North West United States
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm... I can lie quite easily but they are always just white lies or exaggerations to make a story sound more interesting. This kind of lying really has nothing to do with empathy though. I used to exaggerate all the time as a kid and didn't really care if people didn't believe me. 
I don’t have the capacity to lie in order to cover something up. I hate the idea of having to keep track of what I’ve said to whom. I don’t like living with secrets either. Too much anxiety! Way easier just to tell the truth even if it means facing the music.
I don’t get people who lie all the time, get caught 90 percent of the time, but still keep right on telling them. The most idiotic thing that people do is lie to the cop that pulls them over with a radar gun about the speed they were going. Seriously. 
Last edited by marshall on Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Malsane
Sea Gull
Joined: Jun 30, 2008
Age: 20
Posts: 234
Location: Iowa, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| I can't lie to anyone I like/admire/respect. I detest lies in general. |
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Josie
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 26, 2008
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:18 am Post subject: |
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I don't like to lie to anyone.
Sometimes I am too honest and upfront. |
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anbuend
Oak-Type Autie
Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 2990
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | Theory of mind is required for lying. |
No it's not.
All that needs to happen, is someone can figure out by random chance that if they say certain things they get the results they want. They don't have to at all understand the mechanism behind getting those results, they just have to figure out how to reproduce them.
Also, a person can lie to themselves, which doesn't require understanding anyone else.
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Age: 28
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Location: North West United States
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| anbuend wrote: | | Also, a person can lie to themselves, which doesn't require understanding anyone else. |
I always wondered what it means to lie to yourself. Doesn't feel like something that can be done willfully. At least I don't have that particular talent. A lot of people seem to have it though. It would certainly make life a lot easier and cure a lot of my depression.
I mean I can tell myself to believe something but as long as I'm in the cognitive act of telling myself to believe something it's impossible to make the jump to actually believing what I want myself to believe because I'm too aware of the voice that's telling me to believe and I see the conflict of interest between what I want to believe and what is reality.
Also, if you lie to yourself you have to somehow be unaware that you are lying to yourself because if you were aware of the untruthfulness you were telling yourself you wouldn’t have succeeded in lying to yourself. Yet how is it possible to lie and be unaware that you are lying?
<goes cross eyed>
Damn. Did that make any sense? |
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anbuend
Oak-Type Autie
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| marshall wrote: | I mean I can tell myself to believe something but as long as I'm in the cognitive act of telling myself to believe something it's impossible to make the jump to actually believing what I want myself to believe because I'm too aware of the voice that's telling me to believe and I see the conflict of interest between what I want to believe and what is reality.
Also, if you lie to yourself you have to somehow be unaware that you are lying to yourself because if you were aware of the untruthfulness you were telling yourself you wouldn’t have succeeded in lying to yourself. Yet how is it possible to lie and be unaware that you are lying? |
Self-delusion is... well... interesting. I've never been able to completely shut off that voice that tells me what's really happening either. But I've been able to attempt to act completely contrary to that voice. I used to torment myself because I'd heard that life is what you believe, so I thought that if I believed things then they'd happen, and that the problem was that I wasn't trying hard enough to believe them. But I never could because they weren't real (and would never have come true in a million years even if I did believe them).
I think most of the time "lying to oneself" means believing something false, that you could know was false if you thought it through, but deliberately not thinking it through too hard.
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2ukenkerl
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Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 4299
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| anbuend wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | Theory of mind is required for lying. |
No it's not.
All that needs to happen, is someone can figure out by random chance that if they say certain things they get the results they want. They don't have to at all understand the mechanism behind getting those results, they just have to figure out how to reproduce them.
Also, a person can lie to themselves, which doesn't require understanding anyone else. |
I think orwell meant:
Theory of mind is required for lying SUCCESSFULLY.
As I understand "theory of mind", it really is required. You have to use what they know, and give only a little info to convey the lie. The more you give to support it, the more they can discount. ALSO, if you convey a fact wrong, and they happen to know it, your lie could seen as a lie.
Of course, I hate lying also. |
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sartresue
Radical Aspergian
Joined: Dec 19, 2007
Posts: 1965
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: Is empathy required for lying? |
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To tell a lie topic
Lying successfully requires rationalizing the data involved in order to create a lie. And some people say what they think others want to hear.  I guess this would envolve theory of mind.
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