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Renagade
Sea Gull
Joined: Oct 25, 2005
Posts: 201
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 Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| I also heard that a gas grenade of the kind used by police was thrown into a full mosque that night. Whether or not it was thrown by police is unknown, though? |
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RobertN
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 31, 2005
Posts: 934
Location: Cambridge, UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| The more that the Daily Mail and associated trash newspapers continue to pump out articles like that, the more reason Muslims have to riot and turn against us. |
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Fiddler
Deinonychus
Joined: Jul 17, 2004
Posts: 338
Location: Reims, France
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Just wanted to say that the UOIF (Union des Organisations Islamistes de France/ Union of the French Islamist Organizations) condemns the riots. |
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ascan
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 1663
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Fiddler wrote: | | Just wanted to say that the UOIF (Union des Organisations Islamistes de France/ Union of the French Islamist Organizations) condemns the riots. |
But words it in a way that implies at least some degree of sympathy, no doubt.
Anyway, I found this article; several years old, but relevant to the thread in general:
http://www.techcentralstation.com/082803M.html
| Quote: | | As nearly every Western country absorbs a fast growing Muslim minority, every Westerner should look closely at France. A French failure to integrate Muslims could lead to a general European and Western failure. Those who don't believe in the clash of civilizations might at least see a clash between traditional Islamic values and Western republican values. This raises the question of the compatibility of Islam with secular democracy (separation of church and state) and human rights (especially the rights of women and of non-Muslims). |
| Quote: | | Many Muslims came to France only to benefit from the state welfare system, get free social housing, free school, free Medicare, and family allocations but with no desire to adapt to French rule of law. |
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Klytus
Toucan
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Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a reading of the situation from the right-wing blogosphere:
| Quote: | Henri Astier: Trudging Through The French Intifada With Sadek
November 3, 2005
Having spent the best part of a week ignoring the story in the hope it would go away, the British MSM have finally (and grudgingly) acknowledged that Muslims have decided to burn sizeable parts of their beloved Paris to the ground.
Here's the BBC's Henri Astier, bemoaning the 'plight' of French Muslims:
Days of rioting in the bleaker suburbs of Paris have highlighted discontent among many French youths of North African origin.
As part of a series on French Muslims, the BBC News website's Henri Astier looks at the issue of discrimination, a leading source of frustration in France's unemployment-riddled ghettos.
... So unemployment's behind the Paris riots, is it? And behind the unemployment, presumably, there are lots of evil, white racists just itching to stick it to poor, underprivileged Muslims? Muslims like, oh, Sadek:
Sadek recently quit his job delivering groceries near Saint-Denis, just north of Paris. He was tired of climbing stairs with heavy bags.
Sadek, 31, has a secondary school education [that's high school for U.S. readers] and aspires to something better. But he knows his options are limited: "With a name like mine, I can't have a sales job."
Well, and at the risk of distracting poor Sadek from his wallowing, it's also worth pointing out that 'I quit my last job because I didn't like the trudging' is probably more of a blight on his CV than ethnicity -- Whereas some employers like Muslims and some don't, it's a fair bet that very few are on the lookout for someone who thinks delivering groceries is too much like hard work.
As far as Henri Astier's concerned, though, neither the behaviour of Muslims in general, nor Sadek in particular, has any bearing on the French riots -- For him, the issue reduces to the simple notion that if Muslims suffer, it must be the fault of racist whites. This is a tactic the left everywhere are fond of employing; they invoke the spectre of racism (which genuinely appals most civilised people), then use it to push us deeper into a victim/entitlement culture by arguing that rioters/terrorists/hurricane victims wouldn't be such a problem if only we'd agree to a to tax hikes and a whole raft of social engineering projects. It's a clever manoeuvre, to be sure. But is it justified?
Well, France's immigrant population is made up so overwhelmingly of North African Muslims that it's difficult to test the theory there -- Since the mass-immigration comes from a single source, it's native French vs. Muslims all the way.
But not so in Britain. Here, after our Empire folded, we took large numbers of immigrants from both Hindu and Muslim cultures, from India and Pakistan. Forty years and three generations on, the situation the two groups are in couldn't be more different. Indians have integrated perfectly. They work hard, contribute to the life of the nation, and are now actually out-performing whites -- 25% of British medical schools' intake is now Indian. British Muslims, on the other hand, are dogged by pretty much the same problems as their French counterparts: poverty, unemployment, social unrest.
Isn't it at all worth pondering why two groups of Muslim immigrants (Pakistani in Britain and North African in France), should both fail so spectacularly, while, at least in Britain's case, non-Muslim immigrants often out-perform their hosts? Couldn't it be that the problems Muslims face are self-inflicted, brought by their backwards culture, and nothing to do with racism whatever? |
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Klytus
Toucan
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Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Renagade wrote: | | From what I've heard it's long-time racism and brutality by the police that led to this. |
Well, I don't see how it was police brutality that caused the incident that supposedly set off these riots. I thought it was part of the police's job to chase and catch criminals. How can it be the police's fault if two youths decide that an electricity substation is a good place to hide? |
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vetivert
gagged, but never silent
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 5768
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| he did say "long-time", klytus, which involves going farther back than just the latest incident. |
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jetsam
Emu Egg
Joined: Nov 09, 2005
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:37 am Post subject: |
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I don't think it's either a revolution or cultural invasion; it's a ghetto-thing and people are just at the end of their tether. First off, it's flippant bigotry to depict them as ungrateful immigrants - many of them are 2nd and 3rd generation, and the fact that they're still stuck out in the bleak limbo of the cités where their parents and grandparents were shuttled on arrival shows how much effort at assimilation there has been by successive national and local governments.
The fact is - Maghrebis ARE marginalised by authorities, employers, schools and on the street. There is a casual but deep racism that is specifically anti-Arab (and it's worst in the south). I live in a small town where there are no such ghettos and we've been spared the explosion of anger and frustration, perhaps because it's not as concentrated as it is in larger towns along the coast.
If your daily dose of reality is material deprivation, racial scorn outside your neighbourhood, low expectations and little encouragement from teachers, always at the end of the line for job consideration, exile to the furthest reaches of the public transport system and the neglected margins of European society, why should you hold to your allocated fate? |
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Sean
Banned
Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 3503
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| What are the gun laws like in France? Will most of the law abiding citizens be able to defend themselves? |
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ascan
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 1663
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jetsam wrote: | | First off, it's flippant bigotry to depict them as ungrateful immigrants - many of them are 2nd and 3rd generation, and the fact that they're still stuck out in the bleak limbo of the cités where their parents and grandparents were shuttled on arrival shows how much effort at assimilation there has been by successive national and local governments. |
I expect most of the trouble makers don't want to be assimilated, anyway. They are first and foremost Muslims and Arabs. They don't want to be French, English or whatever. |
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jetsam
Emu Egg
Joined: Nov 09, 2005
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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What you "expect" may be typical of the kind of ignorance and bigotry I alluded to.
What do you actually know about the cités? |
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Bec
Cramazing
Joined: Aug 18, 2004
Age: 21
Posts: 1916
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean wrote: | | What are the gun laws like in France? Will most of the law abiding citizens be able to defend themselves? |
I think people are only allowed to have rifles for hunting, and to own a gun they must belong to a gun club. That is not definite, so don't think of it as a fact, but that is what I've heard. |
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ascan
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 1663
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| jetsam wrote: | What you "expect" may be typical of the kind of ignorance and bigotry I alluded to.
What do you actually know about the cités? |
Hmmm... and what you've "alluded to" may be typical of the delusions of the bleeding-heart left — but there again, who am I to judge?
I've observed, read about, and interacted with some bottom-of-the-pile types from underclass estates. Also, seen how keen "British" Muslims are to maintain their own cultural identity — that's to say many (but not all) obviously don't want to be British, certainly not as I understand it, anyway.
It shouldn't be too unreasonable to extrapolate that to gain an understanding of the French situation. But, I realise there are differences.
Anyway, Pen's got the right idea: deport them. Of course, that's easier said than done these days; though, I notice they're kicking out non-nationals involved in the riots (and realise the definition of "national" in this context extends only as far as a piece of government documentation). Perhaps that indicates the "problem" extends a little beyond what you're indicating |
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mini
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Nov 16, 2005
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| nerderer wrote: | | y[sic]...its not societies duty to integrate the minority into itself, [sic] |
hah. That will be very bad news for this entire community, and also anyone else considered a minority be it for racial, disability or other reasons.
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RobertN
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 31, 2005
Posts: 934
Location: Cambridge, UK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm... and what you've "alluded to" may be typical of the delusions of the Islamophobic right — but there again, who am I to judge?
I've observed, read about, and interacted with some bottom-of-the-pile types from the white working-class. Also, seen how keen white chavs are to maintain their own cultural identity — that's to say many (but not all) obviously don't want to be civilised and part of modern multi-cultural Britain, certainly not as I understand it, anyway.
It shouldn't be too unreasonable to extrapolate that to gain an understanding of the French situation. But, I realise there are differences. Obviously kicking out racist elements of the population would go a long way to easing racial tensions in deprived areas. |
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