 
Support Wrong Planet Awareness!
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Silver_Meteor
Asperger Accountant
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: North Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: Yemen Confronts Plight of Child Brides |
 |
|
Hopefully this is the beginning of the end of this shameful practice.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0822/p07s03-wome.html
_________________
Not by revolution but through evolution are all things accomplished in permanency.
Certified Bookkeeper:AIPB
QB ProAdvisor
Diagnosed with Autism/Childhood Schizophrenia early 60s. Today, I would have Asperger Syndrome |
|
| Back to top |
|
Khan_Sama
Phoenix
![]()
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 782
Location: Royal State of Hyderabad
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm against the motion. Child marriages are also widespread in India, particularly in the North-western area, the Thar desert. My great-grandmother herself was 11 when she got married, and had a very happy marriage. My grandmother was 14. My other grandmother was 17. They all lived happy married lives. However, I'm completely against forced marriage. Islam is also against forced marriage. Those muslims who force their children to get married are committing an unforgivable sin according to their own religion. As per the Quran, one has the right to choose who he/she is getting married to, and it is sunnat (good, but not compulsory) to get their parents approval. My sympathies lie with these girls who were forced to get married, but my sympathies also lie with those who are much older and also forced to get married. I've seen it happen frequently around here, and I consider it to be an inhuman act. The practice of forced marriage is not native to Islam as you might think, it's a chronic problem in all third world countries. I recently recall watching a program about it on BBC, where 30-50% of Ethiopian orthodox christian girls are forced to get married by their parents during their late teens, by far the highest rate throughout the world.
I've previously argued about this, and a certain individual (patched up with him since) started flaming me for being a "pedophile". My view will not change - age doesn't matter at all, whether one is 70 or 7. Marriage doesn't interfere much with one's education, married couples in colleges and high school are proof of that.
The problem is not child marriage, but forced marriage. |
|
| Back to top |
|
BokeKaeru
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 525
Location: Alternately Los Angeles, CA and Northampton, MA
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Khan_Sama wrote: | I'm against the motion. Child marriages are also widespread in India, particularly in the North-western area, the Thar desert. My great-grandmother herself was 11 when she got married, and had a very happy marriage. My grandmother was 14. My other grandmother was 17. They all lived happy married lives. However, I'm completely against forced marriage. Islam is also against forced marriage. Those muslims who force their children to get married are committing an unforgivable sin according to their own religion. As per the Quran, one has the right to choose who he/she is getting married to, and it is sunnat (good, but not compulsory) to get their parents approval. My sympathies lie with these girls who were forced to get married, but my sympathies also lie with those who are much older and also forced to get married. I've seen it happen frequently around here, and I consider it to be an inhuman act. The practice of forced marriage is not native to Islam as you might think, it's a chronic problem in all third world countries. I recently recall watching a program about it on BBC, where 30-50% of Ethiopian orthodox christian girls are forced to get married by their parents during their late teens, by far the highest rate throughout the world.
I've previously argued about this, and a certain individual (patched up with him since) started flaming me for being a "pedophile". My view will not change - age doesn't matter at all, whether one is 70 or 7. Marriage doesn't interfere much with one's education, married couples in colleges and high school are proof of that.
The problem is not child marriage, but forced marriage. |
The only question(s) I would have about this, Khan_Sama, is at what point is child marriage different from forced marriage? Many people who are almost adults are afraid to go against their parents' decisions about crucial life matters that will affect them for years to come, so how is a 7 year old necessarily supposed to object if she (he?) doesn't want to marry someone at that time, or marry that person, that her parents have picked? What recourse is there for such a young person? I'd say that such a move to abolish or at very least curtail child marriages is a good thing, simply because it could so easily lead to abuse or ignoring consent. |
|
| Back to top |
|
slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 9858
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
I couldn't think of a way to defend so-called child-marriages.
A child cannot give consent.
What you have there, Khan Sama, is a pederasty culture.
_________________
God is a consuming fire ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
ummAR
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 30, 2007
Posts: 68
Location: be right there...
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
Slowmutant wrote: "A child cannot give consent."
Well, that is the orthodoxy in the West now, isn't it, but that's all it is: orthodoxy.
The fact is it all boils down to physiology. Sexual maturity. Whenever a person reaches puberty and there is social support for marriage, I don't see any reason to prevent it. In the West, they want to vaccinate prepubescent girls against venereal disease and give out condoms in school because "it doesn't make sense to deny reality", but if societies support legitimate sexual relationships between sexually mature youngsters, it's supposedly pathological.
Go figure.
What is needed in these locales is not prevention of child marriage, but rather support to prevent injustice within the system: promoting awareness that a girl has the right to refuse when she reaches maturity and leaders of conscience who can influence fathers to make decisions in their daughters' best interests.
I have two daughters (5 and 3) and I see nothing wrong with contracting their marriage "early" if a suitable match is found and providing support for them if they decide to consummate the marriage when they reach sexual maturity.
Thank you for speaking out, Khan_Sama. |
|
| Back to top |
|
slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 9858
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I guess it's your orthodoxy against mine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
ummAR
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 30, 2007
Posts: 68
Location: be right there...
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| touché |
|
| Back to top |
|
ShadesOfMe
Kivatesavam The Pink Bunnay!
Joined: Jul 01, 2004
Age: 17
Posts: 17151
Location: California....or the cuteness place with One-winged-angel
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think it's wrong to force a child, or anyone else to get married. It's abominable.
_________________
My Bunny will *eet* your bunny for brekfist!
Wolfs are for loving.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Khan_Sama
Phoenix
![]()
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 782
Location: Royal State of Hyderabad
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| BokeKaeru wrote: | | Khan_Sama wrote: | I'm against the motion. Child marriages are also widespread in India, particularly in the North-western area, the Thar desert. My great-grandmother herself was 11 when she got married, and had a very happy marriage. My grandmother was 14. My other grandmother was 17. They all lived happy married lives. However, I'm completely against forced marriage. Islam is also against forced marriage. Those muslims who force their children to get married are committing an unforgivable sin according to their own religion. As per the Quran, one has the right to choose who he/she is getting married to, and it is sunnat (good, but not compulsory) to get their parents approval. My sympathies lie with these girls who were forced to get married, but my sympathies also lie with those who are much older and also forced to get married. I've seen it happen frequently around here, and I consider it to be an inhuman act. The practice of forced marriage is not native to Islam as you might think, it's a chronic problem in all third world countries. I recently recall watching a program about it on BBC, where 30-50% of Ethiopian orthodox christian girls are forced to get married by their parents during their late teens, by far the highest rate throughout the world.
I've previously argued about this, and a certain individual (patched up with him since) started flaming me for being a "pedophile". My view will not change - age doesn't matter at all, whether one is 70 or 7. Marriage doesn't interfere much with one's education, married couples in colleges and high school are proof of that.
The problem is not child marriage, but forced marriage. |
The only question(s) I would have about this, Khan_Sama, is at what point is child marriage different from forced marriage? Many people who are almost adults are afraid to go against their parents' decisions about crucial life matters that will affect them for years to come, so how is a 7 year old necessarily supposed to object if she (he?) doesn't want to marry someone at that time, or marry that person, that her parents have picked? What recourse is there for such a young person? I'd say that such a move to abolish or at very least curtail child marriages is a good thing, simply because it could so easily lead to abuse or ignoring consent. |
| slowmutant wrote: | I couldn't think of a way to defend so-called child-marriages.
A child cannot give consent.
What you have there, Khan Sama, is a pederasty culture. |
| ummAR wrote: | Slowmutant wrote: "A child cannot give consent."
Well, that is the orthodoxy in the West now, isn't it, but that's all it is: orthodoxy.
The fact is it all boils down to physiology. Sexual maturity. Whenever a person reaches puberty and there is social support for marriage, I don't see any reason to prevent it. In the West, they want to vaccinate prepubescent girls against venereal disease and give out condoms in school because "it doesn't make sense to deny reality", but if societies support legitimate sexual relationships between sexually mature youngsters, it's supposedly pathological.
Go figure.
What is needed in these locales is not prevention of child marriage, but rather support to prevent injustice within the system: promoting awareness that a girl has the right to refuse when she reaches maturity and leaders of conscience who can influence fathers to make decisions in their daughters' best interests.
I have two daughters (5 and 3) and I see nothing wrong with contracting their marriage "early" if a suitable match is found and providing support for them if they decide to consummate the marriage when they reach sexual maturity.
Thank you for speaking out, Khan_Sama. |
ummAR typed the words right out of my head, thanks. ^^;
Also, in most third world societies, arranged marriage is the norm. Again, there's nothing wrong with an arranged marriage, but one must have the right to refusal.
Also, regarding that a "child can't give consent", there's nothing further from the truth. Children can refuse to take anything they don't want to. Children are not as naive as adults picture them. The concept of marriage is understood by all children, and I knew what sexual intercouse was and how babies are born at the age of 10. Children can, indeed, give consent. |
|
| Back to top |
|
ummAR
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 30, 2007
Posts: 68
Location: be right there...
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
If it's done right, it's not about forcing. Yemen is a Muslim country and in Islam, no woman can be married against her will. She has the right to refuse. Even if her marriage is contracted before puberty, she has the right to have it annulled if she does not want it when she reaches maturity (If she would rather kill herself as it says about the girl in the article). No marriage is lawfully allowed to be consummated before puberty. There are checks and balances in Islamic law, and the imposition of Western cultural values--restrictions and permissions--will be rejected because they do not work with the big picture. The problem is more complex than simply making an arbitrary minimum legal age for marriage. The minimum legal age is puberty. Properly exercised, that is a freedom. And the solution is not going to come from outside. It must work with the existing system, from inside. The economy is weak, governments are corrupt, people (fathers, husbands, mothers, etc.) make bad (even criminal) decisions when under such pressures. These are not excuses for them, but rather an explanation of how violations are not prosecuted. These things can be seen clearly in the article if you can sift through the loaded expressions, but that is difficult to do for readers from a wholly different cultural background who have no knowledge of the situation, and it leads to superficial judgments which is just what many people with an agenda want.
My point is: women have rights in Islam -- both the right to marry when sexually mature and the right not to. It is these rights that are being violated and it is through the legitimate system that they should be addressed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
CanyonWind
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 12, 2006
Posts: 1477
Location: West of the Great Divide
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
Throughout history, all over the world, marriage and the family has been the fundamental institution of human society.
Except in the United States and other countries following a parallel path. Here marriage and family are somewhere near the bottom of the list of priorities, way beneath ego and career status.
Half of all marriages end in divorce here, and a significant number of the ones that don't end up in divorce involve people being totally miserable.
In my country, fathers cease to exist in the lives of children after divorce, except as a source of free money. The courts call them "non-custodial parents" so they can pretend they aren't simply discriminating by gender, which is in fact exactly what they're doing.
In our "advanced" culture, male parents and children have no rights. Female parents have no responsibilities. That's the reality of "liberty and justice for all."
But things aren't bad enough yet for those in power. They're working to make it worse. The US Department of Justice is currently using my tax money to put posters all over town telling women to leave "abusive" relationships, to run to the nearest feminist operation and lie about being abused by males and children.
"Abuse" is defined by those in power as any adult female not always getting everything she wants, or getting everything she wants on a silver platter instead of a gold one. If it's proved that she's lying, that doesn't matter. Female children, of course don't matter at all. Their suffering is irrelevant.
It's perfectly okay in the United States for female parents to beat up children, as long as they say the child is "abusive." Don't try to tell me that's not how it works.
Our divorce rate isn't high enough. There aren't enough children being forced to grow up without fathers. We're working hard to make things even worse.
And we're telling people of other cultures to reform their institutions of marriage and the family, so they can be just like us.
_________________
Brother Pteranodon, I would have loved your wings;
Proud sabertooth, to snarl;
Mammoth, to trudge the world.
-Loren Eiseley |
|
| Back to top |
|
EnglishLulu
Toucan
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
Posts: 276
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ummAR wrote: | If it's done right, it's not about forcing. Yemen is a Muslim country and in Islam, no woman can be married against her will. She has the right to refuse. Even if her marriage is contracted before puberty, she has the right to have it annulled if she does not want it when she reaches maturity (If she would rather kill herself as it says about the girl in the article). No marriage is lawfully allowed to be consummated before puberty. There are checks and balances in Islamic law, and the imposition of Western cultural values--restrictions and permissions--will be rejected because they do not work with the big picture. The problem is more complex than simply making an arbitrary minimum legal age for marriage. The minimum legal age is puberty. Properly exercised, that is a freedom. And the solution is not going to come from outside. It must work with the existing system, from inside. The economy is weak, governments are corrupt, people (fathers, husbands, mothers, etc.) make bad (even criminal) decisions when under such pressures. These are not excuses for them, but rather an explanation of how violations are not prosecuted. These things can be seen clearly in the article if you can sift through the loaded expressions, but that is difficult to do for readers from a wholly different cultural background who have no knowledge of the situation, and it leads to superficial judgments which is just what many people with an agenda want.
My point is: women have rights in Islam -- both the right to marry when sexually mature and the right not to. It is these rights that are being violated and it is through the legitimate system that they should be addressed. |
I'm sorry, don't bring Islam into the equation in relation to this misogynistic backwards cultural practice.
And don't try to justify it saying: "...She has the right to refuse. Even if her marriage is contracted before puberty, she has the right to have it annulled if she does not want it when she reaches maturity..." because that's a load of bollocks. Do you think the kind of misogynistic excuse for a father who marries off his daughter as a child is going to permit her to have the marriage annulled? No. "Family honour" will come into play and the family will exert intense pressure to prevent her from refusing her suitor. There have been instances of dis-honour killings in this kind of situation.
Marrying off a child is totally unjustifiable and amounts to child abuse. |
|
| Back to top |
|
slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 9858
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
I read a story in the Toronto Star about a Muslim woman whoser "boyfriend" had burned her face with acid while she slept. He did this because he felt th relationship was not moving along as it should. No charges were laid.
This woman now works in a haidressing salon, believe it or not.
And still they have her in that damned veil, with her face burned off. Why wear it stil? There's nothing left to tempt those righteous men of yours.
Muslim women live as subhuman creatures and somehow think they are being treated like royalty by their adoring men.
Muslim woman have the "right" to beating, rape, immolation, honour-killings ..
 
Last edited by slowmutant on Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:01 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
CanyonWind
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 12, 2006
Posts: 1477
Location: West of the Great Divide
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sure, me and how many million other guys?
And, as you surely know, things are just as bad in Canada.
_________________
Brother Pteranodon, I would have loved your wings;
Proud sabertooth, to snarl;
Mammoth, to trudge the world.
-Loren Eiseley |
|
| Back to top |
|
slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 9858
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| CanyonWind wrote: | Sure, me and how many million other guys?
And, as you surely know, things are just as bad in Canada. |
Probably, yeah. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
