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durentu
Hummingbird
Joined: Sep 08, 2009
Posts: 23
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 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue |
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First off, I'll assume that when you say nice guy as it relates to shyness, you're talking about the introvert.
Now applying what we know about introverts and dating, things become clearer. However, there is a general rule about mating that I think applies from evolution.
Individually, our first instinct is to survive, then to reproduce. In hetero relationships, somewhere internally, the male provides the survival part and the female provides the reproduction part. This is mainly why in history, the strong male is attractive and the pretty girl is attractive.
Physical prowess was the leading determinant of a successful male. To fight off animals and such. The problem is that our biology hasn't caught up with the times. The means of survival today are different from the means of survival a long time ago. In modern times, it's about money. Isn't it fitting that the prettiest girls go with the richest guys? It's a sort of eugenics.
From what I can tell, the elements of success through history for a male has changed. Just yesterday it was brains, today it's much more about personal growth. If a girl was with a computer geek, basically, life would be pretty darn good. "Girl's guide to geek guys" was a very excellent publication that basically argued that geeks are a preferred alternative to the macho males that are outdated.
When I think about the nice guy at the bar, I see an element out of place in the universe. The nice guy has no business in a bar trying to pick up girls. Basically, it's an introvert trying to play the extrovert game. It's just harder for no apparent reason, and the results are probably less than satisfactory. The shy nice guy would have a much better chance at finding a partner through his hobbies, through his passions. The best tactic for this type of nice guy is to engage the imagination of the girl. This is almost impossible in a bar with loud music and alcohol.
Nice guys that finish last, are basically a fish out of water.
| AutisticMalcontent wrote: | Well I'm going to cite off a cliche' that everyone is familiar with- "Nice guys finish last". I am a strong believer in this cliche', the reasons being very simple, according to what I've observed. First off all, nice guys are typically "normal" and are not nearly as interesting/exciting and wild as overly confident guys/jerks/charming guys. Note that I am not using jerks as a synonym for all confident guys romantically, just a select group. Secondly, nice guys tend to be shy and not nearly as assertive romantically like confident guys tend to be. And finally, nice guys, in their shyness, don't understand about how to approach girls/women romantically, and therefore they appear awkward around them.
These are the reasons why nice guys fail I believe. But I also have another belief and I'm curious as to how many agree with me on this. Since nice guys are often rejected because of their shyness, girls tend to go out with guys that exude confidence, and who also tend to be jerks after a while. This is my opinion, I think that girls who reject nice guys and date jerk-type guys more than deserve the heartache they will eventually feel, whether it be a bad breakup, being used, or whatever else. I'm not saying that every girl has to date one particular nice guy, but I'm saying that if a girl rejects a nice guy for a jerk, isn't it fitting that she pay the consequence of her choice? Kind of like the physics principle "For every reaction there is a opposite and equal reaction"? Just my thoughts, tell me what you guys think  |
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biostructure
Velociraptor
Joined: Dec 18, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 451
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:44 am Post subject: |
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<pop-game-theory analysis>
I don't know about shy guys, but the kind of "nice guys" I see being complained about on other sites are the kind of guys who will essentially beg for sex, and be willing to do whatever a girl wants in order to get it. Essentially, they find guys who show their sexual desperation in that manner highly unattractive. Whenever women complain about that, it makes them (the women) lose lots of attractiveness points with me themselves, and here's why:
Let's put women and men onto a rough spectrum of "giving" and "taking", and for the sake of this argument let's assume it's a given that it's harder for men to get sex than anything else (emotional support, committed relationships, etc.), and that it's the opposite for women. To the extent that women want sex and men want other things, they will have it easy and therefore there's no point analyzing that possibility.
The most "giving" women are what I will call the "Playmates", because I HATE saying "sluts", which is probably the only other word that makes sense here. They are very willing to give sex without expecting anything whatsoever in return. While there are certainly men who will be willing to interact with these women in non-sexual ways, Playmates forfeit any *guarantee* that they will get anything but sex. They are therefore admirable, even if they are not this way out of altruism but out of simply being sexually very un-choosy by nature.
Somewhat less giving are the "Whores". Now, I neither mean to shame them, nor to imply that they actually are prostitutes, but any women who are willing to give sex for a "price" that is stated up-front (monetary or otherwise) fall into this category. This includes women who will have sex with guys who buy them expensive dinners, as long as the man can reasonably consider sex a "sure bet" if he in fact pays.
Then come the "Moving Targets". This is a huge, heterogeneous category of women who give and take to varying degrees in a manner that men can't easily decode. Depending on their whims, they charge a very different "price", or sometimes none at all, for sex.
Finally, we have the "Bitches". Now, I don't mean to imply that every woman assigned this label is in this category. What I mean here are women who purposefully try to trick men into giving them things constantly, while attempting to never allow any men to have sex with them.
Now on the guy side, at the pure giving end we have "Dads". Again, of course I don't mean that every father is like this toward women, but hopefully he is this way toward his children. These men are willing to give women resources, support, etc. without ever expecting sex in return.
Lining up vaguely with the "Whores" on the female side are the "Nice Guys" that many women hate, who still expect sex but are willing to work very hard for it, even to the point where they act like her puppy dog. So while "Nice Guys" are often desperate for sex, to the point where they will trade almost anything for it, the "Whores" are desperate for resources, to the point where they will have sex with almost anyone to get them.
Then we have the male "Moving Targets", who are just like the female version but in reverse.
Finally, we have the "Players", who as the reverse of the "Bitches", pretend to give things to get sex, without following through unless they absolutely have to.
Now, the "Playmates" and "Dads" don't impose costs on the system, except to those of their same gender who would prefer not having cheap competition. The "Whores" and "Nice guys" cost something, but yet in some sense they also fill the role of "public goods", by saving both themselves and the opposite sex effort by making the terms of the transaction more transparent and volunteering to give their part up front, allowing a lot of the game playing to be shortcut.
The "Bitches" and "Players" create the most trouble for the opposite sex, but the "Moving Targets" also impose a net cost on everyone in terms of time that needs to be spent socializing before either side gets what they want. To me, and probably lots of other aspies, this is a big cost. We would much rather be able to walk up to someone of the opposite sex, immediately strike a deal, and then proceed to giving each party what they want.
So when women hate "Nice Guys", they are sending one of two messages. Either, they actually like the terms of the game to not be transparent, such that each side constantly has to wonder whether the other side will give anything. Or else, they consider their gift of sex SO valuable that it is priceless, and no amount of nice things done by an average guy will make her want to put out. The first is understandably frustrating because it essentially says "I don't want there to be a an easy way out. Any guy who wants sex has to play a time-consuming psychological game, even if it also costs myself socializing time". The second scenario essentially says "no matter how nice the average guy is, he doesn't deserve sex, and he doesn't even deserve an explanation why he doesn't deserve it". So there's my answer.
</end pop-game-theory analysis> |
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Janissy
Phoenix
Joined: May 06, 2009
Age: 43
Posts: 1104
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| You really have no conception of sex and love going together, do you? |
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spooky13
Raven
Joined: Jul 15, 2009
Posts: 122
Location: Purgatory
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Whores, bitches, and playmates?! Since you like to use such descriptive words for us, why aren't the men called dicks, pricks, and assholes?
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"Online, your speech is only as free as the TOS that you agreed to." - Me |
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SINsister
the towering inferno
Joined: May 26, 2005
Posts: 1297
Location: six feet over
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| spooky13 wrote: | | Whores, bitches, and playmates?! Since you like to use such descriptive words for us, why aren't the men called dicks, pricks, and assholes? |
You're right - most of them *should* be. 
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.all those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. |
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biostructure
Velociraptor
Joined: Dec 18, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 451
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| spooky13 wrote: | | Whores, bitches, and playmates?! Since you like to use such descriptive words for us, why aren't the men called dicks, pricks, and assholes? |
I don't consider "playmates" a negative term. In fact, those are the only one I could only say positive things about. I DID, however, mean "playERS" in a negative manner when referring to guys. Of course it doesn't have to be, but in my description it is. And most women use "nice guy" in a derogatory manner too. But feel free to substitute any of those three words you mentioned for the "players", if you like.
And don't forget, if you do not think of sex as a means to get money, commitment, or anything else, you cannot be a whore or a b***h by my definitions  . |
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Chr1s
Hummingbird
Joined: Sep 19, 2009
Age: 34
Posts: 21
Location: Southern Maine, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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this all really comes down to figuring out what you want and going after it. If you're tryinh to pick up women in a bar or club for the sake of picking up a woman, than of course there is competition and the more masculine 'alpha' type males are going to win most of the time. Realize though that the women sitting in a bar loking to get pciked up are looing for just that, and not a long term relationship with a 'nice guy'.
"Once we can get past caring about what the rest of the world thinks, and care about who we are and what truly matters, only then can we truly live!" ME~! |
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RossMc
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Oct 04, 2009
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:46 pm Post subject: Some thoughts on "nice guys" versus "jerks&qu |
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One reason that women often seem to not like nice guys is that often their niceness is more like passivity, or it is seen as manipulative. Also, the one thing that helps women in the battle between the sexes is that their sex drive is much weaker than mens'. The evidence for this weaker sex drive is simply overwhelming. This often allows them to use sex as a bargaining chip. In sex, just like door-to-door selling, aggressiveness and persistence pay off for the man.
Another interesting finding from psychological surveys- Women who have frequent sex with a wide variety of partners are more likely to be unhappy and depressed, while men who similarly have frequent sex with a wide variety of partners, show up as being more happy than other men.
There is then a bit of truth to the old idea that sex is somewhere where women "give up' something and men get something. If you look at what women actually like, i.e. romances and chick flicks, the ideal man is not a super-masculine thug type. Instead, he is most often independent, non-conformist, and hard to get. In short, he is manly enough to represent a challenge without being really scary.
To all nice guys out there, if you get hit with female dissing- accusations, tantrums, orders etc., just withdraw fast and start looking at other women. You don't have to a tough guy. If you can take what life dishes out without whinng, you are ahead of the game. |
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tpal
Emu Egg
Joined: Oct 09, 2009
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:16 am Post subject: "nice guys finish last?" |
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Hey...I haven't read all the replys to your post, so I hope this is not repetitive. I was guilty of going for the bad guys. I dated someone very sweet and kind who treated me like a princess. He wrote me letters, gave me small sweet gifts very often, stood when a girl came to the table, opened doors for all ladies...was a perfect gentleman in all areas. I wish I could say I stayed with him and married him, but unfortunately for me I didn't. I had my own problems. Let me tell you and any girls who may read this: Don't be stupid like I was! He is just the kind of guy most women want including me, but it took me too long to figure that out. He found someone else who appreciated him for who he was.
Not all girls are stupid like I was. I wish I could turn the clock back, knowing what I know now. Nice guys deserve a real chance girls! You will wish later that you went for a nice guy, but you may not have another chance at that kind of special guy. I can't remember the exact words, but from one of my favorite movies a mother is telling her daughter something about wasting your chances. We always think we will get another chance...be careful ladies....you may find out later that you missed out on the love of your life.
And to you, Mr. Nice Guy? Don't give up! There are girls and women who are looking for you. If someone doesn't appreciate you for who you are move on and find someone who will appreciate you.
Good luck!
Trish |
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LemonBubblez
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Mar 12, 2009
Posts: 27
Location: Brisbane, Dumb State, Ausfailia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:10 am Post subject: Re: "nice guys finish last?" |
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| tpal wrote: | | And to you, Mr. Nice Guy? Don't give up! There are girls and women who are looking for you. If someone doesn't appreciate you for who you are move on and find someone who will appreciate you. |
Hehe, this statement is best described as a horrible, horrible lie.  |
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FaithHopeCheese
Snowy Owl
Joined: Oct 18, 2009
Age: 28
Posts: 134
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| I think this sentiment really comes from how intense and complicated our world is. We're all so amped up, we can't just chill out and have a *nice* time, but don't give up hope. I read on some other blog one time, that the reason girls like the bad boy is because he's willing to fight for her. So, even though he treats her like sh*t, she feels safe with him. I am in a relationship with a "nice" guy and even though he is strong as an ox, I don't feel safe with him because he's kind of clueless. There are other things I am unhappy about with him, but this in particular, is a big turn off. I want to feel like he values me enough to worry about me in certain situations. Once, when we were out, someone in a group of guys groped me. I didn't see who it was but I knew it had to be one of four guys, and my boyfriend didn't do anything. Kind of made me feel like he's not much of a man. Sorry if I sound like a b*tch for saying that... that's just how I felt/feel. I didn't expect him to fight for me, but he could have at least run to my side, SOMETHING.... but he just stood there like he didn't know what to do. I'm just venting now, but hopefully this will help nice guys better understand what *some* women want. |
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racooneyes
Deinonychus
Joined: Sep 24, 2009
Age: 30
Posts: 357
Location: blackeye, outer rim
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Yes doing something is very important. Most aspies seem to think the safest thing to do is nothing well I can tell you now that doing nothing is always the wrong thing to do when it comes to women.
I think this doing nothing trait, it extends to all parts of aspie life, comes from the limbic responses of freeze, flight or fight. This is how everyone responds in a new or threatening situation but I think aspies only get as far as the freeze response some break in the connection between the lizard brain and the mammalian brain going on there that means we do nothing at all (freeze) when what's actually required is positive action (flight or fight).
In other words 'if I just ignore it it'll go away' is never the case, as I say this extends to every aspect of life.
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read all the pamphlets and watch the tapes!
get all confused and then mix up the dates. |
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polymathpoolplayer
Velociraptor
Joined: Aug 12, 2009
Posts: 457
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: "nice guys finish last?" |
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| LemonBubblez wrote: | | tpal wrote: | | And to you, Mr. Nice Guy? Don't give up! There are girls and women who are looking for you. If someone doesn't appreciate you for who you are move on and find someone who will appreciate you. |
Hehe, this statement is best described as a horrible, horrible lie. |
Agreed and I will share some reasons why:
#1 reason: the man who was forced to wait too long (whatever that limit might be) will not wait any further and will eventually become something of a misogynist and will ironically not see that the particular lady who happens to come into his life is interested or will reject her out of hand in a general sort of "revenge".
OR: #2: even if he does not act as in scenario #1 it will happen too late for him to marry and have kids.
OR: #3: the woman who has woken up to this truth about her past behavior and tries to reform will be too old to hold his interest.
And in general: #4: women select men due to peer pressure and either: A): most likely will see other women reject him and word of this gets around and so most women will continue to shun him because they don't want to be perceived as chasing unworthy material, or B): his self-image will suffer to the point where even if he does not become the misogynist under scenario #1, he will send out "loser" vibes and women will shun him - just as they would if he acts bitter.
So sorry to tell you tpal, your urging for the nice guy to hold on is a wasted effort. I suggest you play the Beatles' song "I'll Follow The Sun". This is the song I play or think about every time I've gotten thick with someone like you. In fact it might sound cruel but my fervent prayer is that everyone like you should have a horrible, miserable life. Oh wait...you already are! |
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starygrrl
Deinonychus
Joined: Apr 13, 2009
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on "nice guys" versus "jerk |
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| RossMc wrote: | One reason that women often seem to not like nice guys is that often their niceness is more like passivity, or it is seen as manipulative. Also, the one thing that helps women in the battle between the sexes is that their sex drive is much weaker than mens'. The evidence for this weaker sex drive is simply overwhelming. This often allows them to use sex as a bargaining chip. In sex, just like door-to-door selling, aggressiveness and persistence pay off for the man.
Another interesting finding from psychological surveys- Women who have frequent sex with a wide variety of partners are more likely to be unhappy and depressed, while men who similarly have frequent sex with a wide variety of partners, show up as being more happy than other men.
There is then a bit of truth to the old idea that sex is somewhere where women "give up' something and men get something. If you look at what women actually like, i.e. romances and chick flicks, the ideal man is not a super-masculine thug type. Instead, he is most often independent, non-conformist, and hard to get. In short, he is manly enough to represent a challenge without being really scary.
To all nice guys out there, if you get hit with female dissing- accusations, tantrums, orders etc., just withdraw fast and start looking at other women. You don't have to a tough guy. If you can take what life dishes out without whinng, you are ahead of the game. |
The thing is the "nice guy" thing is often code for men who are often misogynistic, creepy, chauvinistic, etc. Its a turnoff not because of the passivity, but the other things under the surface.
I have met alot of truely great guys who got married pretty quickly (in thier twenties), the reasons I can sumarize for them getting married is not because they were alpha males/or assholes. Instead it was the fact they were actually completely respectful from the start of the relationship towards thier female partner, became her best friend, had a complimentary sense of humor, shared similar interests/background, and they were generally good compliments to each other. Did they have an activce sex life: absolutely. When it gets down to it, its not about being a nice guy or alpha male or anything like that...its about treating women with respect, and realizing that sex is part of the relationship, and an important part, but not the only part. This is why you get alot of people from similiar professions/education levels in relationships...honestly just look at Barack and Michelle Obama, thier relationship is pretty similar to relationships of people I have known in my life that have been successful.
Alot of the problems with what I see posted is that its overly misogynistic (biostructure) or kind of misses the point. You are the first person who kind of gets it. The thing is this is not as black and white, or easy to follow. This takes work and understanding.
I had a male friend put successful M/F relationships in this way: She is always right, and use the bread plate. And this is very much a loaded statement with lots of hidden meaning. Figure out what it means...maybe just maybe you will have a chance. |
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LivingOutsideTheBox
Snowy Owl
Joined: Jan 07, 2009
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Nice can mean several things:
1: Caring. Those guys don't finish last. But..
2: Weak guys, or rather, shy/paranoid-to-offend guys DO finish last because they are...well, they're no fun.
Being nice, fine.
Just don't be shy.
Shy guys finish last. |
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