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BokeKaeru
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 507
Location: Alternately Los Angeles, CA and Northampton, MA
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 Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:54 am Post subject: In Defense of Friendship (and Those Who Want It) |
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And this is coming from a totally asexual perspective, so I might be unaware of the implications it has in the minds of sexual people, but...
Is the infamous "friend zone" really that horrible of a fate, insulting of a designation?
Is it even possible that a girl (or boy) who wants to be friends isn't doing it to reject you, but to accept you, albeit on a different level, in the way that they find most precious?
I've had a few guys want to get together with me. My thoughts? "Awesome! Someone to talk about anime with, have long rambling philosophical discussions into the night with, who will help me come up with stories and projects, and who I can go out and do things with!" Their apparent thoughts? "Let's screw!" When I found out their true intentions, I wasn't flattered, nor annoyed, nor disgusted, or anything similar. I was disappointed. I felt like I was offering them the equivalent of a meal at a five-star restaurant, and they metaphorically wanted to go to the drive-thru at McDonald's instead. I offered them my heart and soul, and all they could see is my physical form.
Wanting to be friends with people hasn't been a matter of doubting their confidence, masculinity, financial security, attractiveness or whatever else many here seem to think women value above all else in my life. The guys (and girls) most precious to me have been the ones I've considered friends, and who have likewise considered me a friend, in the best ways possible.
On this forum, it's made to seem like those horrible, picky women are being passive-aggressive and using "friendship" as a way to dismiss men they don't like. Maybe that's true of some. But also, just consider this, some people might consider an offer of friendship a sign of respect and yes, even love, albeit not the sort you're thinking of.
I know people will probably hate what I'm saying here, but I'm really tired of seeing friendship denigrated and devalued here, to the point of making it sound like a personal offense. Friendship is a valid and powerful form of love, and does not become obsolete the moment you hit puberty. Just because romantic partners are known as "significant others" doesn't mean that other forms of partnerships have to be considered insignificant. |
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Cyberman
Cyber Lieutenant
Joined: Apr 25, 2008
Posts: 1259
Location: Cyber Control
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| It's good to have a close friend, but my need for love and acceptance can't be fulfilled by that (and no, it's not just a sexual need.) |
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BokeKaeru
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 507
Location: Alternately Los Angeles, CA and Northampton, MA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| What is the mental-emotional difference between friendship and romantic love apart from physicality? I have long wondered this. |
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Cyberman
Cyber Lieutenant
Joined: Apr 25, 2008
Posts: 1259
Location: Cyber Control
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| Romantic love, at least from what I understand, is a love of one's entire being, whereas friendship doesn't quite go that deep. |
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BokeKaeru
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 507
Location: Alternately Los Angeles, CA and Northampton, MA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Who's to say it can't, if indeed romantic love can be separated from the physical? I don't mean to be combative here - I literally don't understand. |
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ToadOfSteel
Extremist Moderate
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 2819
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:40 am Post subject: |
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I have no problem with the friend zone existing. I actually have more female friends than I do male friends (when "friend" is defined as someone I can completely trust, which is what I usually define the term "friend" as for myself).
My main problem with the friend zone is that women use the "let's be friends" as a form of rejection. If she actually does want to remain friends, that's a whole different story. However, my experience says that most women that use that line usually don't want anything to do with me...
The only other problem is that the friend zone is often seen as this inviolable construct; once the event horizon is crossed, one cannot turn back. Such a concept is foreign to me... I see a romantic relationship as merely the sum of a friendship (as per my own definition above) and physical attraction. After all, if I can't trust a particular woman under normal circumstances, how would I be able to trust her under intimate conditions? So for me, friendships are a requirement before romance can become a possibility... |
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LePetitPrince
Feminist activist O_o
Joined: Mar 03, 2006
Age: 26
Posts: 3458
Location: Beirut , Lebanon
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| There's a huge difference between the "friend zone" and real friendship, I guess that this point was already clarified. |
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sgrannel
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 21, 2008
Posts: 550
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:55 am Post subject: |
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I'm still having a little trouble working this out myself. The fact is that sexuality charges a man's interaction with women in a way that can make friendship difficult if he is not already in a secure relationship with another woman. I have had difficulty reading the signs that a particular woman I know just wants friendship, and I think this has been part of the reason I haven't seen her in almost 2 years. Other times I have offended women who were interested in me because I didn't move quickly enough. My capacity to be just friends with women would be greatly improved if I were in a secure sexual relationship with one.
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You should get to know me better. No one's ever what they seem.-- Shirley Manson |
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KingChaosNinja
Velociraptor
Joined: Apr 26, 2005
Age: 22
Posts: 489
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:03 am Post subject: |
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From my perspective, romantic love and physical love are not necessarily mutually inclusive nor exclusive for that matter. I through observation yearn for people physically, but due to my nature I'm only comfortable around certain women physically. Ones that I feel understand me personally, and I tend to feel romantic love for those who I share an emotional understanding with. So for me personally they're mutually exclusive, but if I didn't yearn for anyone physically, I'd still feel romantic love for to someone I feel emotionally comfortable around. And inversely if I could not care about having an interpersonal connection with someone I feel physical love for, or/nor cared about finding such a person.
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"No matter how many instances of white swans we see, we must never assume that all swans are white." ~Sir Karl Popper
*I picked this username 4 years ago when I was in high school. Don't hold it against me. |
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ToadOfSteel
Extremist Moderate
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 2819
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| sgrannel wrote: | | The fact is that sexuality charges a man's interaction with women in a way that can make friendship difficult if he is not already in a secure relationship with another woman. |
Not entirely true. As I said in a previous post, I've had more female friends than male friends. In addition, several of the women I've been romantically attracted to are in that list, and I've never had a real grilfriend (just one unofficial relationship with someone I did theater with that ended when the show ended)...
| Quote: | | I have had difficulty reading the signs that a particular woman I know just wants friendship, and I think this has been part of the reason I haven't seen her in almost 2 years. |
One of the reasons I like my personal model of managing friendships and relationships with the opposite sex is that since the only thing that distinguishes a romance from a friendship is the physical attraction, I just have to consciously kill the physical attraction, and I can easily see any woman I was previously romantically interested in as a friend... That ability to consciously cease to be physically attracted to a woman has come in quite handy at times, although it doesn't work to kill emotional attraction...
| Quote: | | Other times I have offended women who were interested in me because I didn't move quickly enough. |
And this is the downside. I've had women attracted to me before, but even while some may have been physically attractive, few meet the friend criterion i have, and even fewer (only the one unofficial relationship i mentioned) reciprocated me feelings for her...... |
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ProtossX
Toucan
Joined: Dec 18, 2007
Posts: 257
Location: USA, IL.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
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LePetit Hits the nail on the head again
the friend zone = not good thing
real friend = good
the friend zone is basically when one in the relationship usually a woman thinks the guy is not good enough for her so she goes out to movies/dinner an stuff with him as a friend which lets the guy who likes her hang out with her and she just talks about stuff usually about guys she likes an what you don't meet up to etc but doesn't outright say it.
the friend zone guy is basically just a gay man around her unable to do any moves sexually an she controls the entire relationship and downplays the friendzone friend as someone who will listen to her when she had a rough day an talk about real men she likes to date have sex with instead of you, an maybe show you outfits she picked out for picking up guys who aren't you
the friend zone guy's are just basically a gay man technically imo |
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Enigmatic_Oddity
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 05, 2005
Posts: 1455
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Don't feed the troll.
I'm with the original poster here, I think that sometimes as much as you may fancy someone, if they don't find you attractive or partner material for whatever reason but leave the opportunity open for friendship, then that's not necessarily just a nice way to brush you off. Sometimes it genuinely is an offer of friendship, and if it's not, you just have to take the hint. Life is full of disappointments and if the worst thing that ever happens to you is that a girl rejects your advances I'd say your life is pretty sweet. |
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BokeKaeru
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 507
Location: Alternately Los Angeles, CA and Northampton, MA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Enigmatic_Oddity wrote: | Don't feed the troll.
I'm with the original poster here, I think that sometimes as much as you may fancy someone, if they don't find you attractive or partner material for whatever reason but leave the opportunity open for friendship, then that's not necessarily just a nice way to brush you off. Sometimes it genuinely is an offer of friendship, and if it's not, you just have to take the hint. Life is full of disappointments and if the worst thing that ever happens to you is that a girl rejects your advances I'd say your life is pretty sweet. |
Whew, for a minute there until I scrolled up I was worried that you thought I was a troll.... 
But anyways... I'm glad at least one person (and a couple other people here who can at least imagine friendship being possible and worthy) sees things my way. Due to the other sorts of threads on this forum (and some comments on other forums downplaying platonic or asexual love...) I was almost afraid to check back on this thread. It's a relief to know someone agrees! |
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JohnHopkins
In no way offensive to anybody. Honest.
Joined: Nov 20, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 2059
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| BokeKaeru wrote: | | What is the mental-emotional difference between friendship and romantic love apart from physicality? I have long wondered this. |
Romantic love is a closeness to someone who you feel closer to than anybody else. Stuck-on-a-desert-island love, spend-forever-in-this-room-with-you, love. Love above all others. |
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pbcoll
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 1799
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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There are obviously exceptions to the following, and the OP sounds like one of the exceptions, but in my experience women usually don't take friendships with males, at least heterosexual ones, seriously - their real friends, as they appear to see it, are their female friends, the male friends are usually at best merely pleasant, non-threatening company, at worst just a shoulder to cry on in bad times or someone to get favours from. This is why, in most cases, the friends zone = the dump - you're not wanted as a partner, but neither is meaningful friendship desired. As I said, there are instances in which genuine friendship is on offer, but these are rare - I don't mean that most women are users, I mean that most women seem, either by lack of interest or lack of ability, unlikely to form true friendships with the opposite sex (a phenomenon also common in men).
My latest experience in asking a girl out might illustrate this: we were friends for a while (no, I did not fake the friendship, though she thought I did - I wasn't attracted to her in that way at first). She grew on me, and it wasn't only a deeper friendship that I wanted (though I certainly wasn't only looking for sex - I wasn't even physically attracted to her at first, though I became attracted later). She rejected me when I asked her out but told me she valued the friendship and did not want to lose it. However, she frequently avoided me after that, etc. When she needs help, she doesn't hesitate to ask me, but for anything else she goes to her female friends. I now only talk to her superficially, often just to ask for a favour. I don't consider her a proper friend.
Of course in some cases it's going to be 'I want sex' versus 'I offer genuine, deep friendship' but it can also be 'I want genuine romance' versus 'I offer superficial, meaningless friendship.' You can see why guys might prefer never to have gotten to know the girl at all, or may reject such friendship.
| JohnHopkins wrote: | | Romantic love is a closeness to someone who you feel closer to than anybody else. Stuck-on-a-desert-island love, spend-forever-in-this-room-with-you, love. Love above all others. |
Personally, I think the parent-child bond, when strong, is much deeper and stronger than that within a couple. in fact, this is an increasingly important reason for me to look for someone: I want to have kids, and my chances of adopting as a single male are pretty slim, at best.
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Last edited by pbcoll on Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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