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V4der
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 182
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 Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: The "Friend" Category: Oh really. |
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Surfing the boards, I've read a lot of posts dealing with this topic. A lot of people want to stay in the "lover" category and not get pushed over to the "friend" category. They are afraid of acting too much like a friend.
Well, stop for a moment. Let's rewind.
I want to make it known to everyone that this distinction between "Potential Lover" and "Friend" is a theory; and not even a solid one at that. It's difficult to trace back exactly who it was that started this.
Where has this been scientifically, professionally, without-a-doubt proven? Nowhere that I can find. The "PUA Gurus" that teach it seem to ignore the fact that often times Guy-Girl friends become romantically interested in one another, and consequently, make love. If she's already pushed this guy into the friend category, how could this be?
To me, this seems to be more plausible:
Guy + any type of rapport = Potential lover.
Take heart, men. If you've made her into a friend, all is not lost. Far from it.
Far from it.
|-o-| V4der |-o-| |
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AnnieK
Butterfly
Joined: Sep 07, 2008
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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To tell the truth, I've seen far too many girl-guy friend relationships turn into lovers to take this friendship zone seriously. I asked two of my very social very NT female friends about how to go about dating because I'd never been on a date before and they told me that most people get together because they just liking hanging around each other and dating just happens naturally. They both started going out with guys they were friends with originally. In fact in my own observations, get a relatively small group of mixed sex people together and after a while they will pair off. It's not on purpose and they don't become friends with the intention of pairing off (to the subject of much inneundo and gossip from everyone else). It just happens. It's why so many workplace romances occur. When people spend a lot of time together, things happen.
This "friend zone" thing is something that I haven't really observed in real life, as a girl. Most couples start off as friends! Hell, recently a male friend of mine and I have started making eyes at each other. And it's not as if guy-girls become friends with the express purpose of eventually hitting on each other. I have to agree with my friends, it does just happen.
From my own experience and observations it only happens if the girl just isn't attracted to you at all. I know some guy friends who I would be appalled if they asked me out and that's because I just can't see my self in any way going out with them. It's not that I don't like them, I'm just not attracted to them. And I like nice intelligent sweet kind guys. Basically there are guy friends that are datable (and many many relationships start this way) and there are guy friends who just aren't. |
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3658
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: The "Friend" Category: Oh really. |
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| V4der wrote: | | Take heart, men. If you've made her into a friend, all is not lost. Far from it. |
Has no woman every told you "Let's just be friends"? This statement means that she wants to keep the relationship at a level of cheerful non-involvement, and never progress to any level of personal intimacy. "Just friends" means just that, and no more.
<-O->
_________________
The leaders of the American automobile industry have been amazingly consistent in their management philosophy, in that they have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. |
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ToadOfSteel
Extremist Moderate
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 2819
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess I'm going to have to pack my bags and move to the Death Star, because this kind of thing never happens where I live... |
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AnnieK
Butterfly
Joined: Sep 07, 2008
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: The "Friend" Category: Oh really. |
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| Fnord wrote: | | V4der wrote: | | Take heart, men. If you've made her into a friend, all is not lost. Far from it. |
Has no woman every told you "Let's just be friends"? This statement means that she wants to keep the relationship at a level of cheerful non-involvement, and never progress to any level of personal intimacy. "Just friends" means just that, and no more.
<-O-> |
In my personal experience, as a woman and from NT female friends, if a girl flat-out tells you if you ask her out "let's just be friends" then that's what she means. So you are right in that respect.
However, from my experience and advice from very social NT female friends, a lot of couples start off as friends. Hell, why do people think workplace relationships are so common? When people spend a lot of time together, if there is attraction between them, things happen. There are friends and then there are *friends* with a frission of something. And that something may lie buried in the unconscious for weeks, even months before something just brings it out.
Guys and girls - I've been in this position enough times myself - are stuck in the friend zone when there is no mutual attraction, not because they are friends. I suspect I got stuck in it in the past because of body language and lack of flirtatious encouragement from me in the past + inability to recognise opportunity. |
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AnnieK
Butterfly
Joined: Sep 07, 2008
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| ToadOfSteel wrote: | | I guess I'm going to have to pack my bags and move to the Death Star, because this kind of thing never happens where I live... |
Well in my case, this guy and I were friends were months. One day I inadvertently said something which could be taken as flirting (I wasn't flirting intentionally but well...Fortunately my lack of social graces and knowledge comes out lucky sometimes) and he started flirting with me very obviously and I surprisingly found that I liked it. Never thought of him as more than friend before, but I *liked* his obvious flirting, so now I'm looking at him in a different light. Obviously he liked what he thought was my flirting (hey I wasn't going to admit I had no idea what the hell happened). Prior to that there was no hint at all of attraction between us. Obviously though there was the *potential* for mutual attraction and that is what that accidental encounter brought up to the surface. Obviously with guys stuck in the friend zone there was never any potential in the first place...One thing though is that this seems to happen between guys and girls where was never ulterior motive in the first place i.e. neither became friends with the other with the intention of getting close to them. Maybe that tends to screw things up. |
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makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 2256
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: The "Friend" Category: Oh really. |
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| Fnord wrote: | | V4der wrote: | | Take heart, men. If you've made her into a friend, all is not lost. Far from it. |
Has no woman every told you "Let's just be friends"? This statement means that she wants to keep the relationship at a level of cheerful non-involvement, and never progress to any level of personal intimacy. "Just friends" means just that, and no more.
<-O-> |
There are no absolutes, Fnord. While once entrenched in friendship, it is more difficult to uproot the foundations and find both people willing to take the risk, it does happen. Sometimes, a friendship is a stepping stone, sometimes it's a waiting room, sometimes it's just a boot to the alley... sometimes, it just isn't the right time.
M.
_________________
He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
From my heart and from my hand, why don't people understand my intentions...?
Why choose a lesser evil? Vote Cthulhu 2008! |
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3658
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: The "Friend" Category: Oh really. |
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| AnnieK wrote: | | Fnord wrote: | | V4der wrote: | | Take heart, men. If you've made her into a friend, all is not lost. Far from it. |
Has no woman every told you "Let's just be friends"? This statement means that she wants to keep the relationship at a level of cheerful non-involvement, and never progress to any level of personal intimacy. "Just friends" means just that, and no more.
<-O-> |
In my personal experience, as a woman and from NT female friends, if a girl flat-out tells you if you ask her out "let's just be friends" then that's what she means. So you are right in that respect.
However, from my experience and advice from very social NT female friends, a lot of couples start off as friends. |
Agreed. As long as one or the other person's does not play the "Let's Just Be Friends" card, the relationship can evolve into something more intimate and meaningful. But once the card is in play, it's best to look for another game.
_________________
The leaders of the American automobile industry have been amazingly consistent in their management philosophy, in that they have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. |
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TheMidnightJudge
Ghost in the Machine
Joined: Mar 29, 2007
Posts: 1379
Location: New England
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| There is some validity to the friendship getting rid of romantic potential, but that certainly isn't always true. The closest thing I ever had to a girlfriend was a friend first. |
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V4der
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 182
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: The "Friend" Category: Oh really. |
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| Fnord wrote: | | V4der wrote: | | Take heart, men. If you've made her into a friend, all is not lost. Far from it. |
Has no woman every told you "Let's just be friends"? This statement means that she wants to keep the relationship at a level of cheerful non-involvement, and never progress to any level of personal intimacy. "Just friends" means just that, and no more.
<-O-> |
In addition to what some others have replied to this, I'd like to say that the "Let's just be friends" is something I've never experienced from a girl. It isn't the end of a possibility just because she says this... I think if you approach it from the angle that it is all part of the game of courting... then it opens up a new understanding of it. Does that make sense?
If you really like your friend girl, and she says that, don't give up just yet. On the other side of the coin, nobody needs to become thick, and never take a lot of hints that the suiter needs to back off. So... it's important to not smother her on the assumption that it hasn't ended yet. I think if you give her space, stay in contact with her, then there will always be a chance if you play your cards right. But like I said, it's crucial to respect her space.
|-o-| V4der |-o-| |
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BPalmer
Sea Gull
Joined: Jul 26, 2008
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| AnnieK wrote: | | They told me that most people get together because they just liking hanging around each other and dating just happens naturally. |
Then why is there an epidemic of singleness? |
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makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 2256
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| BPalmer wrote: | | AnnieK wrote: | | They told me that most people get together because they just liking hanging around each other and dating just happens naturally. |
Then why is there an epidemic of singleness? |
The unwillingness, of either party, to risk that which is safe and secure for the spectacular yet high risk.
M.
_________________
He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
From my heart and from my hand, why don't people understand my intentions...?
Why choose a lesser evil? Vote Cthulhu 2008! |
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ToadOfSteel
Extremist Moderate
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 2819
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| makuranososhi wrote: | | BPalmer wrote: | | AnnieK wrote: | | They told me that most people get together because they just liking hanging around each other and dating just happens naturally. |
Then why is there an epidemic of singleness? |
The unwillingness, of either party, to risk that which is safe and secure for the spectacular yet high risk.
M. |
How is it high risk? I could easily say "Why don't we just try this out for a while, and if it doesn't work, we can go back to the way things were"? It wouldn't have to be emotional to start with, just the 2 friends hanging out much as they were, and just work into it... If it doesn't work out and they're not too into the relationship with yet, it should be easy to reverse...
PS: I can understand the concept of having opposite-gender friends, but my main issue with it is that women use it as a means of rejection. If you don't want to go out with me just say so, so that at the very least I can get on with my life... |
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makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 2256
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| ToadOfSteel wrote: | | makuranososhi wrote: | | BPalmer wrote: | | AnnieK wrote: | | They told me that most people get together because they just liking hanging around each other and dating just happens naturally. |
Then why is there an epidemic of singleness? |
The unwillingness, of either party, to risk that which is safe and secure for the spectacular yet high risk.
M. |
How is it high risk? I could easily say "Why don't we just try this out for a while, and if it doesn't work, we can go back to the way things were"? It wouldn't have to be emotional to start with, just the 2 friends hanging out much as they were, and just work into it... If it doesn't work out and they're not too into the relationship with yet, it should be easy to reverse...
PS: I can understand the concept of having opposite-gender friends, but my main issue with it is that women use it as a means of rejection. If you don't want to go out with me just say so, so that at the very least I can get on with my life... |
Because relationships aren't like moving furniture; it doesn't just move back to where it was. It isn't easy to reverse; while the emotional content may subside, for me it is the power of memory that can be an obstacle. It took eight years of unabating feelings between my friend and I before it rose to the point where we both felt it was right to move forward together. So, in terms of the friendship, it is a high-risk option... especially for one who values the friendship and is uncertain about the romance, because if it fails that doubt tends to permeate one's perceptions.
M.
_________________
He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
From my heart and from my hand, why don't people understand my intentions...?
Why choose a lesser evil? Vote Cthulhu 2008! |
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ToadOfSteel
Extremist Moderate
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 2819
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| makuranososhi wrote: |
Because relationships aren't like moving furniture; it doesn't just move back to where it was. It isn't easy to reverse; while the emotional content may subside, for me it is the power of memory that can be an obstacle. It took eight years of unabating feelings between my friend and I before it rose to the point where we both felt it was right to move forward together. So, in terms of the friendship, it is a high-risk option... especially for one who values the friendship and is uncertain about the romance, because if it fails that doubt tends to permeate one's perceptions.
M. |
I would think that if you knew someone well enough, you would be able to make an informed assessment on whether the personalities are compatible or not... I'd certainly love to have more to go on at the start other than "she looks cute"... |
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