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| Do you think that the universe is infinite in size? |
| Yes |
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51% |
[ 19 ] |
| No |
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48% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 37 |
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Message |
twoshots
Honorary Vertebrate
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2115
Location: NJ
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 Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| malithion2 wrote: | | twoshots wrote: | | malithion2 wrote: | | twoshots wrote: | | chever wrote: | | twoshots wrote: | | If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding. |
This makes no sense |
How so? The universe's expansion isn't "expansion" in the way that a balloon expands. Wikipedia puts it concisely as
| Quote: | | Even if the overall spatial extent is infinite we still say that space is expanding, because locally the characteristic distance between objects is increasing. |
And this is consistent with what else I have heard on the subject, |
Put two dots on a balloon and you'll see the distance between them expand, this is basically the same thing minus a dimension. Infinite space would imply infinite space at the beginning of the universe: this is not true with the big bang considered all energy and space began at this finite event. Space in every sense could be infinite in a finite universe. |
I really don't think the big bang refutes the possibility of infinite space. I'm not too up on the model, but I've heard enough cosmologists entertain the possibility without qualifications that the universe is infinite that it seems pretty clear that the big bang is not generally thought of as being evidence of such. How exactly that would work I do not understand as yet. |
Well the big bang produced the first light in gamma radiation which has now red shifted to microwave radiation with this we can infer a time scale of about 14 billion years. With this we can assume the universe at the most basic is 14 billion light years in volume. At least that my thoughts on the subject. |
Well, that ignores that the inflationary phase of expansion may have exceeded the speed of light (space can expand at whatever speed it wants too), and on top of that, oddly, wikipedia claims that the universe is actually much larger than that. One of their sources is Constraining the Topology of the Universe, which says:
| Quote: | | For a wide class of models, the nondetection rules out the possibility that we live in a universe with topology scale smaller than 24 Gpc. |
where Gpc is billions of parsecs.
This has something to do with the fact the univere's expansion or something. For example, I would suspect that although we may be seeing light emitted 14 billion years ago, what emitted that light has since had plenty of time to get much farther away than that. Although I'm not sure if that is the correct explanation.
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chever
'Mud'
Joined: Aug 22, 2008
Age: 20
Posts: 1668
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
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Yes
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8640
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| chever wrote: | | twoshots wrote: | | If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding. |
This makes no sense |
I think it does. If you think of the whole universe as just a galaxy surrounded by empty void.
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malithion2
Sea Gull
Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 209
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:41 am Post subject: |
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Well, that ignores that the inflationary phase of expansion may have exceeded the speed of light (space can expand at whatever speed it wants too), and on top of that, oddly, wikipedia claims that the universe is actually much larger than that. One of their sources is Constraining the Topology of the Universe, which says:
Quote:
For a wide class of models, the nondetection rules out the possibility that we live in a universe with topology scale smaller than 24 Gpc.
where Gpc is billions of parsecs.
This has something to do with the fact the univere's expansion or something. For example, I would suspect that although we may be seeing light emitted 14 billion years ago, what emitted that light has since had plenty of time to get much farther away than that. Although I'm not sure if that is the correct explanation
I think space is still limited by the speed of light, if space expanded at or in excess of light speed there would be no lights, the radiation would red shift to non existence. I wouldn't trust wiki but either way that still states a finite size of the universe +- of 24Gpc's. Plus the big bang was a one time event, it only exists in the past.
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malithion2
Sea Gull
Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 209
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: |
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Sorry this has become a highly quoted thread.
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Adrenaline
Sea Gull
Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Age: 46
Posts: 226
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: |
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OK, lets take a big step back and look at the whole picture. we just found an energy form that has temporal property's, basically you do something too it here and it affects a medium that it passed or is going to pass through on the other side of our world instantly if not at times before.
considering that this energy is susceptible to the universes and atomic magnetic fields then its boundaries would only exist in that of the total of our big bang from start to finish. it would be affected in all time zones of the existence of our universe as it passes through them. think of it as an invisible magnetic field that travels time.
then also add to this that many such energy units travel space as far as it can go in a striate line before some kind of gravity pulls it back, now with it travailing time, even so minute, its distances it can travel would be huge, so huge it seems it would leave or universe altogether, now if this is possible then there would be nothing for it to gravitate back too other then more of its own kind, given enough of this in an infinite amount of time I am sure it could grow in to quite a whole new universe all its own.
so the question would or should be, with the boundaries of our universe based on our perceived matters and energy's,
and our energy's reaching far beyond our known comprehensions, what are we going to consider our actual boundaries?
that of soled matter? or shall we include the radiations that hallo our known universe?
Last edited by Adrenaline on Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8640
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: |
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Y'know there are a couple of microbes in my gut at this very moment asking the same kinds of questions about what lies beyond Pete. 
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twoshots
Honorary Vertebrate
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2115
Location: NJ
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| malithion2 wrote: | Well, that ignores that the inflationary phase of expansion may have exceeded the speed of light (space can expand at whatever speed it wants too), and on top of that, oddly, wikipedia claims that the universe is actually much larger than that. One of their sources is Constraining the Topology of the Universe, which says:
Quote:
For a wide class of models, the nondetection rules out the possibility that we live in a universe with topology scale smaller than 24 Gpc.
where Gpc is billions of parsecs.
This has something to do with the fact the univere's expansion or something. For example, I would suspect that although we may be seeing light emitted 14 billion years ago, what emitted that light has since had plenty of time to get much farther away than that. Although I'm not sure if that is the correct explanation
I think space is still limited by the speed of light, if space expanded at or in excess of light speed there would be no lights, the radiation would red shift to non existence. I wouldn't trust wiki but either way that still states a finite size of the universe +- of 24Gpc's. Plus the big bang was a one time event, it only exists in the past. |
Well, yes the universe may well be finite, but my point is that this is not obvious. And it isn't a matter of trusting wiki; aside from the fact that their sources are traceable, I also rarely cite them for something unless I've heard it elsewhere. Anyway, my first point makes plenty of sense; since what we see 14 billion lightyears away is the past, the size of the universe must exceed that of the visible by the amount the visible universe would have expanded in the time it has taken the light to get here.
Now, as for whether or not the expansion of the universe has exceeded the speed of light in the past, this is something I have heard quite frequently, although I suppose I'll have to go dig up a source to prove it to you sometime...
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greenblue
¸.·´´¯`··.¸.·´
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 7869
Location: Home
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | chever wrote: | | twoshots wrote: | | If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding. |
This makes no sense |
I think it does. If you think of the whole universe as just a galaxy surrounded by empty void. |
well, I think it makes sense IF the universe had no origin and its age is infinite, but if the universe originated with the big bang, then logically it cannot be infinite.
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malithion2
Sea Gull
Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 209
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Y'know there are a couple of microbes in my gut at this very moment asking the same kinds of questions about what lies beyond Pete. |
I can only imagine! A good analogy can be made from that I think though.
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8640
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | well, I think it makes sense if the universe had no origin and its age is infinite, but if the universe originated with a big bang, then logically it can't be infinite. |
Ahh, yes, but can we be absolutely certain about the age of the universe? It's not exactly like carbon-dating a clay pot, is it?
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malithion2
Sea Gull
Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 209
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| greenblue wrote: | | slowmutant wrote: | | chever wrote: | | twoshots wrote: | | If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding. |
This makes no sense |
I think it does. If you think of the whole universe as just a galaxy surrounded by empty void. |
well, I think it makes sense IF the universe had no origin and its age is infinite, but if the universe originated with the big bang, then logically it cannot be infinite. |
Precisely!
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malithion2
Sea Gull
Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 209
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Quote: | | well, I think it makes sense if the universe had no origin and its age is infinite, but if the universe originated with a big bang, then logically it can't be infinite. |
Ahh, yes, but can we be absolutely certain about the age of the universe? It's not exactly like carbon-dating a clay pot, is it? |
No it's not like a clay pot, but using distance we can infer age.
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greenblue
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Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 7869
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Quote: | | well, I think it makes sense if the universe had no origin and its age is infinite, but if the universe originated with a big bang, then logically it can't be infinite. |
Ahh, yes, but can we be absolutely certain about the age of the universe? It's not exactly like carbon-dating a clay pot, is it? |
It really doesn't matter how old is the universe, but implying that it had a beginning, the issue is that if the universe is infinite then its age would be infinite as well.
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twoshots
Honorary Vertebrate
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2115
Location: NJ
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| greenblue wrote: | | slowmutant wrote: | | Quote: | | well, I think it makes sense if the universe had no origin and its age is infinite, but if the universe originated with a big bang, then logically it can't be infinite. |
Ahh, yes, but can we be absolutely certain about the age of the universe? It's not exactly like carbon-dating a clay pot, is it? |
It really doesn't matter how old is the universe, but implying that it had a beginning, the issue is that if the universe is infinite then its age would be infinite as well. |
Well, no. That doesn't follow at all. The universe's expansion could have been infinite at some point, or the universe may have begun infinite.
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