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| Do you think that the universe is infinite in size? |
| Yes |
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51% |
[ 19 ] |
| No |
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48% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 37 |
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| Author |
Message |
twoshots
Honorary Vertebrate
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2115
Location: NJ
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 Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Drakilor wrote: | | The universe is clearly finite. This is neither up for debate nor susceptible to personal opinion. |
 If there's one thing I have been arguing is that while it may be true that the universe is finite it is not clear. Don't let your presumptions get the best of you. The world is a weird place...
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greenblue
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Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 7869
Location: Home
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| twoshots wrote: | | Well, no. That doesn't follow at all. The universe's expansion could have been infinite at some point, or the universe may have begun infinite. |
What doesn't follow?
The observations from an expanding universe leads to the theory of the universe starting from a point and expanding ever since, that gives a picture of a finite inflating universe, doesn't make much sense the idea of an infinite expansion since the beginning.
The thought of the universe beginning infinite from a starting point may sound very interesting, but it is a big jump of assumption and perhaps controversial when it comes to the the laws of physics known or assumed and when it comes to the nature of observable science, and I'm not sure how much scientific value would that hold. From what we can gather it is more reasonable to think and perhaps mathematically as well, to concur the universe as finite which is inflating and growing in 'size' from a scientific viewpoint. Otherwise a big bang would not make sense at all, even the concept of an infinite universe having a beginning would not make sense.
We could also argue what is the nature of infinity really is, if it really exists or not, so far the concept of eternity is something we cannot touch for ourselves and merely seem a concept of our own. On the other hand, we could wonder if space is infinite, not the universe, but just space (void if you will) probably most people would think so.
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Last edited by greenblue on Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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greenblue
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Joined: Mar 26, 2007
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| twoshots wrote: | | Drakilor wrote: | | The universe is clearly finite. This is neither up for debate nor susceptible to personal opinion. |
If there's one thing I have been arguing is that while it may be true that the universe is finite it is not clear. Don't let your presumptions get the best of you. The world is a weird place... |
From what we gain or assume to gain as evidence so far seem to give a picture of a finite universe, no matter how big, still finite, scientifically speaking.
The idea of the reality of the universe as infinite, I assume that concept might be better suited to metaphysics rather than astronomy and astrophysics, at least I think it would.
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malithion2
Sea Gull
Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 209
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Psimulus wrote: | | malithion2 wrote: | | Psimulus wrote: | | Every process must be initiated, including the Universe. There is no beginning, their is no end, their are only in betweens. It has always been and will always be. Their is not and can not, by the very definition of the word its self, be more than one Universe. Their may be verses or versions contained within the Universe. Uni'verse. If the Universe at some point never was, then what induced its effect? And if this be the case, something Must preclude it. Anyone who says their is more than one Universe or that it is finite has not meditated deeply enough on the issue. Or perhaps have ulterior motives and would like to deceive you. |
The universe you describe is unchanging and static, thats proven to be far from correct. |
That is simply your interpretation of my words. We are constantly changing form. An infinite series or parallels can also be considered to be composed of static moments. |
It's my interpretation of the facts! one of Einsteins biggest mistakes was assuming that the universe was static, thanks to Hubble we know this to be false due to expansion.
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twoshots
Honorary Vertebrate
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2115
Location: NJ
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| greenblue wrote: | | twoshots wrote: | | Well, no. That doesn't follow at all. The universe's expansion could have been infinite at some point, or the universe may have begun infinite. |
What doesn't follow?
The observations from an expanding universe leads to the theory of the universe starting from a point and expanding ever since, that gives a picture of a finite inflating universe, doesn't make much sense the idea of an infinite expansion since the beginning.
The thought of the universe beginning infinite from a starting point may sound very interesting, but it is a big jump of assumption and perhaps controversial when it comes to the the laws of physics known or assumed and when it comes to the nature of observable science, and I'm not sure how much scientific value would that hold. From what we can gather it is more reasonable to think and perhaps mathematically as well, to concur the universe as finite which is inflating and growing in 'size' from a scientific viewpoint. Otherwise a big bang would not make sense at all, even the concept of an infinite universe having a beginning would not make sense.
We could also argue what is the nature of infinity really is, if it really exists or not, so far the concept of eternity is something we cannot touch for ourselves and merely seem a concept of our own. On the other hand, we could wonder if space is infinite, not the universe, but just space (void if you will) probably most people would think so. |
Rule #1: twoshots is never wrong
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/infpoint.html
Rule #2: in the off chance that you think twoshots is wrong... refer back to rule #1
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/astro/planck.html#c5
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Nerevar
Emu Egg
Joined: Oct 31, 2007
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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We can't see anything further away than 14 billion light years, right? So we are within in a sphere of that radius, hence finite, would be my first guess.
But yea, if the laws of Physics have changed over time, allowing faster-than-light expansion, hypothetical universes could be as large arbitrarily large and still appear to be within that sphere in relation to us. But to have an infinitely large universe from one big bang would need expansion speeds tending to infinity as time tends to 0, which is probably OK so long as you don't actually care about what happens at that "time 0", it just makes that singularity slightly more obscure... |
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patrick6
Phoenix
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Joined: Feb 24, 2008
Posts: 1901
Location: London, U.K.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Have any of you people heard that the universe may actually be a giant electron?
Here's a quote from Carl Sagan's Cosmos series:
| Carl Sagan wrote: | | If the cosmos is closed...there's a strange, haunting, evocative possibility...one of the most exquisite conjectures in science and religion. It's entirely undemonstrated...it may never be proved, but it's stirring. Our entire universe, to the farthest galaxy, we are told...is no more than a closed electron...in a far grander universe we can never see. That universe is only an elementry particle...in another still greater universe and so on forever. Also, every electron in our universe, it is claimed...is an entire miniature cosmos...containing galaxies and stars and life, and electrons. Everyone of those electrons contains a still smaller universe...an infinite regression up and down. |
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khelben1979
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Aug 28, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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"I think" it's infinitive.  |
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Adrenaline
Sea Gull
Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Age: 46
Posts: 226
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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If it is not possible to travel time and time moves always forward,
then the concept of time would have to take on more meaning,
we have discovered new things that can move faster then light, yet I do not think they are actually moving faster then time.
even though things move faster then our concept of time does not mean its moving backward in time.
perhaps slower or faster relative to the gravitational forces and object mass in that given section of space..
One of the reasons I was mentioning black holes ( as worm holes in space) was to see if we can compare
time zones but as a liquid reality then just 3 dimensional space, to contemplate time in this manner,
would it be possible to actually travel time this way, it seems like it would but I do not think so, somethings wrong,
if we can do it then so would the whole universe as it collapses in on its self and jumps randomly forward or backward in time,
to me its not vary realistic to think our universe is stuck in a time loop repeating its self forever,
along with us in it.
Its hard for me to believe that all existence just began in one big bang where an infinity before nothing existed.
this tells me that it either has to collapse in on its self to recycle, or there are more of these big universes out there
that eventually shares materials with others, about like an atom shares its electrons with another atom,
just on a much larger scale, or they can and sometimes do both.
the problem with big bangs and starting over is that some materials would be lost each time until it became
just the right size, or it began just the right size to begin with, and if we are losing materials then where does it go?
what becomes of it?
I think it just keep moving forward in time recycling its self,
each time being different then the last, not repeating its self,
with other close by universes as well doing the same thing and
sharing materials now and then.
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here is a thought,
if universes are like atoms, then after a point they would become stable and exist until something changed it.
we may be at the beginnings of a new atom, where stray energies like electrons collided, creating life. |
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