Tahitiii
Resident Whistle Blower
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Age: 57
Posts: 2271
Location: USA
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 Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: The Neanderthal Theory |
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I just love this picture. http://www.rdos.net/eng/
(Click on "The Neanderthal Theory," to the left.)
And I don't care whether it's true or not. It works for me.
We have lots of short-cuts in human society that make it easier to grasp a concept. Analogies, fairy tales, the classics, popular movies, religion, philosophy, folk tales, science, psychology...
The Little Red Hen, for example, is absolutely false, from beginning to end. Cute little animals do not talk. They don't interact between species. They don't consciously plan for the future. They don't moralize or condemn or reward. Every detail of the whole story is absolutely false. Still, it's a useful tool. It carries a message that otherwise would not get through at all.
Tools are not true or false. They are just tools and can be very useful if you don't take them too seriously. They all break down eventually. If your favorite tool doesn't work in any given situation, toss it back in the tool box and find a different tool. It will probably be useful again someday.
Such a tool only becomes a problem when you make it a part of your identity and feel that you need to defend it beyond reason, to the death.
As science, "The Neanderthal theory" is a little weak. As a model, which is not true or false, it works for me. I have a place to hook it in my brain. It just slid right in and, even though I just found it a few days ago, it already feels like it's been there all my life. Like the concept of Asperger's. It just feels right. |
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ryry85
Snowy Owl
Joined: Jun 13, 2008
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Neanderthals were a different species of hominid. Inter specie breeding is impossible as the male and female nucleii are imcompatibel between different species. i think it is the fact that they would have a different number of chromosomes and not enough matching/related genes. it would be almost as true to suggest that gorillas gave us the aspie gene.
as for the difference between prevalence between europeans, asians, indians, and african, it is an unfortuante adaptation that has been aquired by eurasians more than the others. just as other adaptations have been aquired, for whatever reason, such as skin colour, physical structure, etc. |
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donkey
we have met the enemy, he is us.
Joined: May 22, 2006
Age: 41
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Location: ireland
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: |
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you will find that this kind of theory is not uncommon amongst Scandinavian people.
They seem fascinated by Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon and differentiating between human races.
look up Beowulf on wiki.
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zeichner
Supporting Member
Joined: Sep 11, 2008
Age: 54
Posts: 739
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: Re: The Neanderthal Theory |
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| Tahitiii wrote: | | ...As science, "The Neanderthal theory" is a little weak. As a model, which is not true or false, it works for me. I have a place to hook it in my brain. It just slid right in and, even though I just found it a few days ago, it already feels like it's been there all my life. Like the concept of Asperger's. It just feels right. |
I agree with this way of looking at it. There is a difference between things that are "true" and things that are "truthful" (thank you, Orson Scott Card - Xenocide.)
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0_equals_true
Genuine Charlatan
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 31
Posts: 7986
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| The Neanderthal theory is more than a little weak. It involves stacking multiple assumptions on top of one another. |
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Callista
Phoenix
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Age: 30
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Location: Central USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: |
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I dunno--some people think the Neanderthals were fully human, just a different race, like Russian vs. African. You can easily tell the differences between races from bones (it's getting harder because there's more mixing now; but it's still possible). There was a lot of confusion with the bones thanks to some sort of nutritional deficiency, IIRC...
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0_equals_true
Genuine Charlatan
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 31
Posts: 7986
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Callista wrote: | | I dunno--some people think the Neanderthals were fully human, just a different race, like Russian vs. African. You can easily tell the differences between races from bones (it's getting harder because there's more mixing now; but it's still possible). There was a lot of confusion with the bones thanks to some sort of nutritional deficiency, IIRC... |
Racial profiling is a debunked idea biologically. They can tell some normal variations that we know as 'race' but it is not clear cut. Neanderthal were humans Homo neanderthalensis. Their scull is fundamentally deferent, and so are their bones. We share common ancestors but that does not mean that the bread with us, and even if they did there is no connection with autism. Bonobos and chimps diverged at a point, there is not evidence that they have interbred even though they live in close proximity.
The need to believe that the Autism gene (not that there is much evidence suggesting a single gene or Mendelian condition) came exclusively from Neanderthals is frankly odd, it smack as a superiority complex the likes of Aryan mysticism, and also unwillingness to accept being part of modern human variation |
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Ishmael
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 1310
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: |
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It's an impossible thing - anybody with rudimentary knowledge in genetics knows why, Tahiti, you've acknowledged this yourself, that is good. As a professional, I can't find I really understand your fondness for the theory, though - I view these concepts with considerable distaste, simply for being false. Nonetheless; I do have sort of a soft spot for Neanderthals. Their culture seems one more intelligent and introvert than human; pity they are long extinct.
I find I may well have liked them more than humans. Still, there's always a chance to reconstruct a complete gene sequence and reintroduce the species. Yes, that's right - I'm experimenting in cloning. I'm in Australia; what do you expect?
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Tahitiii
Resident Whistle Blower
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Age: 57
Posts: 2271
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| 0_equals_true wrote: | | it smack as a superiority complex the likes of Aryan mysticism, and also unwillingness to accept being part of modern human variation |
That works for me, too. Except for the word, "complex." It's actually pretty simple. I want to be the child of some alien species.
I hate this brutal, warmongering race that is capable of destroying itself. We're sitting on the brink again (how many times have we been here?) and could easily pass the point of no return in a matter of weeks. If I could do anything about it, I would. Since I can't, I think I'll pass the time left by drifting into my happy little fairy tale. If anyone in the cosmos is taking notes, please mention that it's not my fault. These are not my people. This is not my planet.
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0_equals_true
Genuine Charlatan
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 31
Posts: 7986
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Tahitiii wrote: | That works for me, too. Except for the word, "complex." It's actually pretty simple. I want to be the child of some alien species.
I hate this brutal, warmongering race that is capable of destroying itself. We're sitting on the brink again (how many times have we been here?) and could easily pass the point of no return in a matter of weeks. If I could do anything about it, I would. Since I can't, I think I'll pass the time left by drifting into my happy little fairy tale. If anyone in the cosmos is taking notes, please mention that it's not my fault. These are not my people. This is not my planet. |
Right I see. Well that is fine. I don't think Neanderthal were necessarily non-violent. Problem they had was they were physically slow and overburdened which makes near impossible to run after prey. This is why they tended to live in caves on the edge of forests. Where there is more cover the better chance they had getting close to their prey. |
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Sky
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Apr 25, 2008
Age: 29
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Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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It was an interesting hypothesis, and it seems to have a lot of intuitive appeal to people with asperger's due to the feeling of being so different. With the recent sequencing of the neanderthal genome, however, it became clear that they are not a part of our ancestry and were a completely distinct species that in all likelihood did not interbreed with our ancestors.
So the hypothesis is kind of debunked at this point, though it does have a lot of appeal. |
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anna-banana
indifferent peapod
Joined: Aug 31, 2008
Age: 30
Posts: 6740
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Ishmael wrote: | | Yes, that's right - I'm experimenting in cloning. I'm in Australia; what do you expect? |
if I ever become filthy rich you can count on some funds.
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makuranososhi
Vocal Critic
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 6717
Location: Banned by Alex
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure it explains ASDs... but it is interesting that just last night I watched a two-hour show about Neanderthal DNA testing and finding matches within the modern human genome, as well as skeletons indicative of interbreeding. There is a growing body of scientists who are beginning to hypothesize that mammals who separated from a common ancestor within 1.5-2 million years would have the ability to interbreed (there was a study on primates that was used as an example) and also discussed how such breeding would affect more sudden evolutionary changes. It was an interesting show, and I think further research is worthwhile.
M.
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Ishmael
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 1310
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| anna-banana wrote: | | Ishmael wrote: | | Yes, that's right - I'm experimenting in cloning. I'm in Australia; what do you expect? |
if I ever become filthy rich you can count on some funds. |
Even in a secular nation like Australia, religious paranoia over cloning has made it almost taboo - though legal here, thankfully, political and corporate bodies want little to do with the "bad mojo" assosciated with cloning, so funding for this type of work is hard to come by, especially for independents. For some reason, they think it means cloning whole people with identical memories!! In truth; cloning of individual organs outside of a host, resurrection of extinct species, etc.
But, like with stem cell research, people would rather cling to some flimsy moral highground to secure another term in office/consumer purchases, than to see a paraplegic walk, or Tasmanian tigers alive and abundant.
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Oh, well, fancy that! Isn't that neat, eh? |
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anna-banana
indifferent peapod
Joined: Aug 31, 2008
Age: 30
Posts: 6740
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Ishmael wrote: | | anna-banana wrote: | | Ishmael wrote: | | Yes, that's right - I'm experimenting in cloning. I'm in Australia; what do you expect? |
if I ever become filthy rich you can count on some funds. |
Even in a secular nation like Australia, religious paranoia over cloning has made it almost taboo - though legal here, thankfully, political and corporate bodies want little to do with the "bad mojo" assosciated with cloning, so funding for this type of work is hard to come by, especially for independents. For some reason, they think it means cloning whole people with identical memories!! In truth; cloning of individual organs outside of a host, resurrection of extinct species, etc.
But, like with stem cell research, people would rather cling to some flimsy moral highground to secure another term in office/consumer purchases, than to see a paraplegic walk, or Tasmanian tigers alive and abundant. |
I don't really care about other people's moral standards that much. I have my own and would gladly see some Tasmanian tigers brought back. It's the becoming-filthy-rich part that might be a problem though 
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