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Ishmael
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 1170
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: I hate religious people, why is that a problem? |
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I'm serious here. I'm honest enough with myself to know I hate the religious. I can't help it; the religious perspective is in stark contrast to my own. The... refusal to even argue on common grounds, the retreat into doctrine when challenged.
Now, some people see this as a character flaw on my part. Why? I'm not going to pretend to like them. Why should I? I'm being honest here, it's a fact of my life, so be it. I find no personal fault with it; after all, from a professional standard - I cannot abide their anti-scientific world views. I would not be straying to suggest they disgust me; no offense intended, I'm merely stating my feelings towards them. Now, I know the people this thread will attract... I also know the response they may make - so be it.
But, the fact that I hate them is not the point; the point is, as I said, why should that be a problem?
Even my family, agnostics and atheists, say I should not hate them. Why? If I were to try, I would be merely pretending, until I fail and can not pretend to "respect" them anymore. They are wrong! Why is it taboo to say that!? They are, by my considerations, idiots! Uneducated fools; moreso to the ones attending religious education facilities.
So, why is being honest on my views to them "wrong"? Unpleasant for these people, to hear my views, perhaps. But, it's my open, honest opinion, and if they can spout on about the "evils" of "non-belief", why can't I call them out for being contradictory, tear down offensive posters about non-belief. I mean, vehemently offensive posters.
Acknowledgements of distaste are one thing; bordering on encouraging violence against atheists and other religions posted on a wooden cross are another!
I have always had a problem with religious people; I have no qualms about voicing my concerns over them. So why do people encourage me to "respect" them, considering their own behaviours to other religions, or those without the need to cling to ancient comforts?
Why is that seen as being wrong?! Notice any contradictions? So why can't it just be viewed as a mutual given?
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Oh, well, fancy that! Isn't that neat, eh? |
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Khan_Sama
Phoenix
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Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 611
Location: Royal State of Hyderabad
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| There was a time when I claimed that I wanted to wipe Islam off the face of the Earth, and now I'm a Muslim. Go ahead and say whatever you want, you have every right to. Out of experience, my anti-religion stance in the past earned me no respect apart from a bunch of junkies. |
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Psimulus
Sea Gull
Joined: Aug 23, 2008
Posts: 227
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Perhaps it is "hate" that is at the root of your concern. |
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HD3H
The Lord and Master... Nemesis of DeLoreanDude
Joined: Sep 23, 2008
Age: 17
Posts: 2890
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: |
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I dont hate religion. I just dont see any point.
Its not that ppl dont like that you hate religion. Its because you say it.
Everytime somebody say something like that they hate religion out loud. there is allways somebody standing on the other side pointing fingers.
And this time there are just more ppl pointing fingers than there are ppl hating religion. |
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sufi
Snowy Owl
Joined: Dec 16, 2007
Posts: 160
Location: mid-michigan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: |
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I do not care to be around religious people, many of your points are valid.
I agree "hate" is the definative word. It breeds blind prejudice.
I have often found in life that what we hate is really what we fear.
Try replacing the word hate with fear anytime in any sentence, and you will find fear buried there somewhere.
_________________
If you have one option you have an obsession.
If you have two options you have a delema.
If you have three options you have a choice.
Look for three or more options.
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crackedpleasures
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 14, 2007
Posts: 1777
Location: In between the bright lights and the far unlit unknown, CZ
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: |
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I think disrespecting other peoples believes or hating them for what they believe in, is totalitarian and sectarian and thus you would make the same mistake as religious extremists who hate anyone who is not following their religion. Disrespecting the religious is as bad as religious people not respecting atheists.
I am atheist myself, but I try to always respect whatever a person believes in, regardless what religion it may be. It is a very personal thing and I dont think I have a valid reason to dislike or judge a religious person. In the end I cannot prove god does not exist, he cannot prove god does exist. So none of us can prove our point, so why not just get along and respect each others believes?
_________________
You did it again, yes, you in the mirror
You put your faith in a cruel world...
All my dead friends come to haunt, harm and hinder
Never letting go, here to drag me down to hell
(London After Midnight) |
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Ishmael
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 1170
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: |
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Hate is certainly the correct term. Fear... No, I cannot be afraid. What does it feel like?
What it is is caution... I don't trust people who take their ethics, morals and self development from anything like they do...
I vowed to try and educate, correct or eliminate religion. I will not succeed; but, damn it, I refuse to lie at my deathbed and not say I tried! Okay, maybe it is totalitarian and a double standard. So what? Do I just let them ravage, rape and destroy people, history and knowledge without trying to say something? Do I meekly allow them to creep into governments and schools, inflicting anti-scientific doctrine and practices on myself and future generations?
Just because somebody has been wrong for thousands of years, does not give them the right to remain so, and to inflict themselves upon others. I'm not talking so much about the individual - I still hate them, but so long as they keep it to themselves, fine.
But the institutions! If I were to form a club in which we sang songs about how Pluto is an inside out ice cream sandwich from Canada, the political and scientific communities would have my head.
Look, if religious people want to live in the real world, they must accept the consequences of that world. I hate them because they embody everything I am against - anti-scientific, anti-education, indoctrinated fools... What can they ever achieve? In the primitive years of our past, the religious accomplished much. But they didn't know better! We do now!!
So why can't they accept that? Why do they live in denial? Are they too cowardly to accept that there are mysteries? Is comfort that important to them? Why?
Can they not see that so long as they restrict themselves, they will never amount to anything more than bags of meat and bone that will live, breed, die - all the while clutching musty tome in hopes of peace?
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Oh, well, fancy that! Isn't that neat, eh? |
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irikarah
Blue Jay
Joined: Aug 25, 2008
Age: 28
Posts: 95
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| crackedpleasures wrote: | I think disrespecting other peoples believes or hating them for what they believe in, is totalitarian and sectarian and thus you would make the same mistake as religious extremists who hate anyone who is not following their religion. Disrespecting the religious is as bad as religious people not respecting atheists.
I am atheist myself, but I try to always respect whatever a person believes in, regardless what religion it may be. It is a very personal thing and I dont think I have a valid reason to dislike or judge a religious person. In the end I cannot prove god does not exist, he cannot prove god does exist. So none of us can prove our point, so why not just get along and respect each others believes? |
Would you have the same relativistic view of someone advocating National Socialism or hard-line nationalist groups like the Grey Wolves? Hardcore devil worshippers (i.e. not Laveyan Satanists) or cultists? How about left-wing groups like the Rote Armee Fraktion?
To a lot of atheists and agnostics, organized religion (and particularly Christianity) is just as extreme and intolerable as any of them. |
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hale_bopp
Ruffle some Feathers
Joined: Nov 03, 2004
Age: 23
Posts: 6318
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: |
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The problem is "hate" is a very strong word.
What if you liked everything else about a person? Would you still not be a friend to them?
Also it doesn't hurt to open your mind a little, I'm not religious and base my views on science and spiritual energy. Not saying you should, but the problem could be people see you as narrow minded.. just as bad as narrow minded Christians...
..My favourite Christian is Christian Bale  |
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z0rp
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 05, 2008
Age: 15
Posts: 677
Location: New York, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: |
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I hate religion with a passion but not religious people, especially where I live, most of my 'christian' friends don't even follow their religion anyway so what difference does it make?  |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8640
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: |
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Ishmael:
Only by becoming what you hate will you achieve victory. Remember that. |
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Ishmael
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 1170
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | Ishmael:
Only by becoming what you hate will you achieve victory. Remember that. |
slowmutant, you have so very, very much to learn about spirit and will your book o' spells will never teach you, it's sad. Get that cross outta my face, and try to make use of your life.
Pining for eternal happiness is no comparison to self actualisation.
You've still got time to make up for your mistakes. You only get the one life.
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Oh, well, fancy that! Isn't that neat, eh? |
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ToadOfSteel
Extremist Moderate
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 2819
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Why is that a problem?
Because I tend to hate people that hate me. By saying "I hate religious people", you are saying that you hate me. Therefore, you've given me more than enough reason to hate you right back. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, though...
Using the word "hate" tends to cause escalation. It flies in the face of both religious and non-religious moral standards. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 19
Posts: 4243
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: I hate religious people, why is that a problem? |
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| Ishmael wrote: | | The... refusal to even argue on common grounds, the retreat into doctrine when challenged. |
It works both ways. You can't claim the other side refuses to argue on common grounds if the only common grounds you will accept is your own ground. That's hypocritical.
| Quote: | | Now, some people see this as a character flaw on my part. Why? |
Because it is.
| Quote: | | I'm not going to pretend to like them. Why should I? |
You shouldn't, that would be dishonest.
| Quote: | | I cannot abide their anti-scientific world views. |
Straw man. I am a science student and am not out to oppose science at all. Perhaps you simply lack understanding? Are you conflating multiple different ideas of what constitutes religion together, rather than looking at the reality of what faith is to many people?
| Quote: | | I would not be straying to suggest they disgust me; no offense intended, I'm merely stating my feelings towards them. |
Saying people disgust you is offensive, period. You can't then say "no offense intended."
| Quote: | | But, the fact that I hate them is not the point; the point is, as I said, why should that be a problem? |
The problem is that hate is counterproductive and only produces more hatred, more misunderstanding, and more ignorance and conflict. I will assume those are not goals of yours.
Debatable. If it were so simple, people would not still be arguing about it.
| Quote: | | Why is it taboo to say that!? |
It is arrogant.
| Quote: | | They are, by my considerations, idiots! Uneducated fools; moreso to the ones attending religious education facilities. |
You are free to believe as you choose, even if you are (as here) objectively wrong. You are objectively and demonstratably wrong, but you are still free to believe this. As I am a Christian, you do not know for certain that I am wrong (though you do believe that to be the case) and you definitely can not prove me wrong.
| Quote: | | I have always had a problem with religious people; I have no qualms about voicing my concerns over them. So why do people encourage me to "respect" them, considering their own behaviours to other religions, or those without the need to cling to ancient comforts? |
Straw man. You are attacking a certain subset of religious people who are very much in the minority. Most religious people dislike those types as much as you do.
| Quote: | | Notice any contradictions? |
Yes, there are quite a few contradictions in your view.
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WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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Ishmael
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 1170
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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But saying I don't hate religious people when I really do would be a falsehood.
By my view, the religious desires are weak, pitiful. To not reach deeper conclusions independent of archaic doctrines and groups - or at least shallow conclusions idealized as deeper ones, to not reach those conclusions on ones own is intellectual suicide.
Yes, I will say I hate religious people instead of saying I hate religion. To take that step towards oblivion, they have earned it. To cling to what is essentially a security blanket, cowardly!
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Oh, well, fancy that! Isn't that neat, eh? |
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