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LePetitPrince
Feminist activist O_o
Joined: Mar 03, 2006
Age: 26
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Location: Beirut , Lebanon
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 Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: Common Creationist fallacies about Humans and Animals |
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Ok now ...as the titles says , this thread is dedicated for Common Creationist people's fallacies about Humans and Animals....and nature in general.
I am gonna mention only one for now:
Fallacy #1 : " Only humans kill each others" or "Even animals don't kill other of their own kind, only humans do"
This is first common fallacy in Creationist literature and is usually said by many religious and creationist people , the source of this fallacy is based on their belief that God has gave the gift of choice only to humans and so only humans can choose to whether obey him and do good deeds or not. It's also based on the belief that humans are so unique and the only creatures that have a free-will and not just instincts.
This fallacy is also caused by the belief in a perfect god and so some creationists can't believe that a perfect and merciful god would create animals with "evil" and "criminal' instincts .
Now let's debunk this common statement said by the creationists:
Humans are not the only species that kill members of its own species.
In fact , many species kill their own species more than you can imagine , there's too much murdering and massacres within the same species in the wild.
I am gonna quote some animal's lifestyles with sources:
Examples of Infanticide among animals:
Mountain Gorillas:
| Quote: | | When the dominant silverback(Gorilla alpha male) dies or is killed by disease, accident, or poachers, the family group may be severely disrupted.[6] Unless he leaves behind a male descendant capable of taking over his position, the group will either split up or be taken over in its entirety by an unrelated male. When a new silverback takes control of a family group, he may kill all of the infants of the dead silverback.[20] This practice of infanticide is an effective reproductive strategy, in that the newly acquired females are then able to conceive the new male's offspring. Infanticide has not been observed in stable groups. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Gorilla
Gorillas:
| Quote: | | If challenged by a younger or even by an outsider male, a silverback will scream, beat his chest, break branches, bare his teeth, then charge forward. Sometimes a younger male in the group can take over leadership from an old male. If the leader is killed by disease, accident, fighting or poachers, the group will split up, as the animals disperse to look for a new protective male. Very occasionally, a group might be taken over in its entirety by another male. There is a strong risk that the new male may kill the infants of the dead silverback. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorilla
Infanticide among cats: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/66004443/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
Infanticide is also common among Common chimps.
Example of Murdering for power in the wild :
| Quote: | Hanuman Langurs
They live in medium to large groups, usually with one dominant male. Males do not hold the dominant position for long in a group, with the average being about 18 months. Adolescent males who are expelled from the group sometimes form 'bachelor' packs. These packs, after a time, start to harass the group that expelled them, and challenge the alpha for leadership of the pack. If an attack by a bachelor pack is successful and they are able to kill the alpha, they will engage in a power struggle, where first all of the infants fathered by the previous alpha are killed, and then the bachelors fight among themselves, killing each other until only one remains, who then becomes the leader of the pack. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_langur
Example of forced baby abortion among animals (Zebras):
http://www.ivb.cz/folia/54/3/258-262.pdf
| Quote: |
Sexual cannibalism
Sexual cannibalism is a special case of cannibalism in which a female organism kills and consumes a male of the same species before, during, or after copulation. Rarely, these roles are reversed.[1][2]
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Female mantis devouring male
Conclusion: " Only humans kill each others"/"Even animals don't kill other of their own kind, only humans do" is a stupid fallacy based on religious believes and with no scientific basis.
As you see , killing within the same species among animals is a very common practice and are usually practiced by males among the mammal species , that may explains why most serial killers and murderers are males.
More to the point, an animal may kills another of its own species the usual reasons of humans' mass killing: For power and resources.
To be continued...
meanwhile you can add any common creationist fallacy that you know about. |
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chever
'Mud'
Joined: Aug 22, 2008
Age: 20
Posts: 1668
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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Why reinvent the wheel?
http://www.talkorigins.org/
One that immediately comes to mind is their regular misuse of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Entropy, in the original (and appropriate) sense, does not refer to disorder. Furthermore, Earth is not a closed system, making any arguments about entropy pointless.
Creationists are so full of shit that it's hard to pin down any one thing.
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"You can take me, but you cannot take my bunghole! For I have no bunghole! I am the Great Cornholio!" |
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ValMikeSmith
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Posts: 488
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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I never heard such nonsense as animals do not kill each other,
rather I've seen it happen a lot!
A recent thread associated polar bear cannibalism with loss of polar ice.
I assume this theory came from someone who thinks polar bears normally eat ice! LOL
I'd expect that to have come from the most ignorant among "treehuggers". |
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Fuzzy
Ack! Thbbbt!
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Posts: 2081
Location: Alberta Canada
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ValMikeSmith wrote: | I never heard such nonsense as animals do not kill each other,
rather I've seen it happen a lot!
A recent thread associated polar bear cannibalism with loss of polar ice.
I assume this theory came from someone who thinks polar bears normally eat ice! LOL
I'd expect that to have come from the most ignorant among "treehuggers". |
I can see them killing each other over food, and they are opportunist feeders, so its possible.
Unless they are mating they are solitary animals. The mothers have to guard the young against males because they will kill them, but that has nothing to do with habitat loss.
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I installed Ubuntu once and it completely destroyed my paying relationship with Microsoft.
"I spent an interesting evening recently with a grain of salt." -Mark V Shaney
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madderakka
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Aug 23, 2008
Age: 25
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Where have you heard creationists say that animals do not kill each other? I have been in many churches and have never heard this. |
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Fuzzy
Ack! Thbbbt!
Joined: Mar 31, 2006
Posts: 2081
Location: Alberta Canada
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| madderakka wrote: | | Where have you heard creationists say that animals do not kill each other? I have been in many churches and have never heard this. |
I think what the OP means is that animals are said to not kill their own kind. Another thing I have heard promulgated as if it were true is that animals do not kill other animals out of pure viciousness. For example, even snakes attempt to warn other creatures before striking..
I can think of one animal that kills indiscriminately at least sometimes.. the wolverine. They are also known to urinate on food they dont want, rendering it unfit and unappetizing for other creatures.
The implication is that animals do not make war or murder.
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davidred writes...
I installed Ubuntu once and it completely destroyed my paying relationship with Microsoft.
"I spent an interesting evening recently with a grain of salt." -Mark V Shaney
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chever
'Mud'
Joined: Aug 22, 2008
Age: 20
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Location: Earth
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Fuzzy wrote: | | I think what the OP means is that animals are said to not kill their own kind. Another thing I have heard promulgated as if it were true is that animals do not kill other animals out of pure viciousness. For example, even snakes attempt to warn other creatures before striking. |
Depends. Northeastern US snakes are pretty docile. However, you will not get a warning from a black mamba. Indeed, they strike without provocation.
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"You can take me, but you cannot take my bunghole! For I have no bunghole! I am the Great Cornholio!" |
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Fuzzy
Ack! Thbbbt!
Joined: Mar 31, 2006
Posts: 2081
Location: Alberta Canada
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| chever wrote: | | Fuzzy wrote: | | I think what the OP means is that animals are said to not kill their own kind. Another thing I have heard promulgated as if it were true is that animals do not kill other animals out of pure viciousness. For example, even snakes attempt to warn other creatures before striking. |
Depends. Northeastern US snakes are pretty docile. However, you will not get a warning from a black mamba. Indeed, they strike without provocation. |
Knowledge <--- corrected.
Thanks.
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davidred writes...
I installed Ubuntu once and it completely destroyed my paying relationship with Microsoft.
"I spent an interesting evening recently with a grain of salt." -Mark V Shaney
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Loborojo
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 20, 2008
Age: 49
Posts: 931
Location: wherever I lay my head (now in Ecuador)
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Man's first Mistake :
On the first day, God created the dog and said:
'Sit all day by the door of your house and bark at anyone who comes in or walks past. For this, I will give you a life span of twenty years.'
The dog said: 'That's a long time to be barking. How about only ten years and I'll give you back the other ten?'
So God agreed.
On the second day, God created the monkey and said:
'Entertain people, do tricks, and make them laugh. For this, I'll give you a twenty-year life span.'
The monkey said: 'Monkey tricks for twenty years? That's a pretty long time to perform. How about I give you back ten like the Dog did?'
And God agreed.
On the third day, God created the cow and said:
'You must go into the field with the farmer all day long and suffer under the sun, have calves and give milk to support the farmer's family. For this, I will give you a life span of sixty years.'
The cow said: 'That's kind of a tough life you want me to live for sixty years. How about twenty and I'll give back the other forty?'
And God agreed again
On the fourth day, God created man and said:
'Eat, sleep, play, marry and enjoy your life. For this, I'll give you twenty years.'
But man said: 'Only twenty years? Could you possibly give me my twenty, the forty the cow gave back, the ten the monkey gave back, and the ten the dog gave back; that makes eighty, okay?'
'Okay,' said God, 'You asked for it.'
So that is why for our first twenty years we eat, sleep, play and enjoy ourselves. For the next forty years we slave in the sun to support our family. For the next ten years we do monkey tricks to entertain the grandchildren. And for the last ten years we sit on the front porch and bark at everyone.
Life has now been explained to you.
There is no need to thank me for this valuable information. I'm doing it as a public service.
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Fuzzy
Ack! Thbbbt!
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Posts: 2081
Location: Alberta Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Loborojo that was hilarious!
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davidred writes...
I installed Ubuntu once and it completely destroyed my paying relationship with Microsoft.
"I spent an interesting evening recently with a grain of salt." -Mark V Shaney
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twoshots
Honorary Vertebrate
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2115
Location: NJ
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Fuzzy wrote: | | madderakka wrote: | | Where have you heard creationists say that animals do not kill each other? I have been in many churches and have never heard this. |
I think what the OP means is that animals are said to not kill their own kind. Another thing I have heard promulgated as if it were true is that animals do not kill other animals out of pure viciousness. For example, even snakes attempt to warn other creatures before striking..
I can think of one animal that kills indiscriminately at least sometimes.. the wolverine. They are also known to urinate on food they dont want, rendering it unfit and unappetizing for other creatures.
The implication is that animals do not make war or murder. |
IIRC, chimps have been known to engage in extermination of other tribes. And murder? Check.
Hell, my cat takes obscene pleasure from torturing small rodents.
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Loborojo
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Age: 49
Posts: 931
Location: wherever I lay my head (now in Ecuador)
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| twoshots wrote: | | Fuzzy wrote: | | madderakka wrote: | | Where have you heard creationists say that animals do not kill each other? I have been in many churches and have never heard this. |
I think what the OP means is that animals are said to not kill their own kind. Another thing I have heard promulgated as if it were true is that animals do not kill other animals out of pure viciousness. For example, even snakes attempt to warn other creatures before striking..
I can think of one animal that kills indiscriminately at least sometimes.. the wolverine. They are also known to urinate on food they dont want, rendering it unfit and unappetizing for other creatures.
The implication is that animals do not make war or murder. |
IIRC, chimps have been known to engage in extermination of other tribes. And murder? Check.
Hell, my cat takes obscene pleasure from torturing small rodents. |
you would be shocked if you knew how many indigenous birds domestic and feral cats eliminate daily (htey are a threat in New Zealand to the birds!! And in Australia they poison them and aboriginals now have them in their diet too
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LePetitPrince
Feminist activist O_o
Joined: Mar 03, 2006
Age: 26
Posts: 3458
Location: Beirut , Lebanon
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Fallacy#2 : Creationists say that there was no eating meat until after the flood ,AFTER SIN OF MAN.they say that lion will lay down with the lamb.
In other term, creationists believe that carnivory didn't exist before the flood and that animals like tigers and lions were herbivores.
If lions and tigers and other hunter animals were herbivores then they would need appropriate teeth in order to cut the plans and herbs and those animals only became carnivores after the Flood.
however the oldest fossils of tigers and tiger-like creatures that they had sharp teeth and claws ...all the necessary equipments for hunting and for cutting and eating meat.
http://sabertooth.gt.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/skeleton.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Smilodon01.jpg/800px-Smilodon01.jpg
The problem is , that creationists say that all those fossils were created during the flood , yet we can clearly notice the sharp teeth and claws of these fossiled animals , we can also notice the "Z" structure of their legs like all nowadays carnivore felines and Canis , the "Z" legs' structure is a fundamental element for speeding and jumping ....so for hunting.
Let's suppose that evolution doesn't exist , let's suppose that god exists and let's suppose that carnivory didn't exist before the flood.
Then the question that would arise : Why the bible's god would create animals who are fully equipped for hunting and carnivory and zero-equipped for cutting plants and herbivory?
Were there some plants in the pre-flood era who were so bulky and capable to run so tigers and lions had to run fast after them (by using their great legs' muscles) , jump on them (by using their Z legs) , tear those plants' bodies (by using sharp claws) and finally use the sharp canines to eat the bulky dead plant?
....and oh ...that one doesn't look very herbivore to me:
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ShawnWilliam
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Posts: 1462
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ValMikeSmith wrote: | I never heard such nonsense as animals do not kill each other,
rather I've seen it happen a lot!
A recent thread associated polar bear cannibalism with loss of polar ice.
I assume this theory came from someone who thinks polar bears normally eat ice! LOL
I'd expect that to have come from the most ignorant among "treehuggers". |
umm, actually that was a news article which said that.. they wanted to scare people about the global warming 'thing' that's going around.. apparently we should be worried and start paying out tons of money to these green peace organizations.. all because some bears are eating each other, like im sure has happened more than once over the course of thousands or millions of years...  |
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Fnord
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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The quote I remember more than that stated in the OP is:
"Man is the only animal that kills for sport."
I've heard this from the pulpit, as well as read it in liberal secularist literature.
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Last edited by Fnord on Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:54 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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