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Silver_Meteor
Asperger Accountant
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 1144
Location: North Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA
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 Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: Growing evidence for the extreme male brain theory of autism |
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Some tidbits from a very interesting article.
.....Women, on average, are better at identifying and responding to the thoughts and actions of other people. In lay language and psychology, this is called empathizing......
......Men, on average, are better at building systems from parts, and at understanding these systems. In this context, a "system" is anything with inputs and outputs that is governed by rules, like a car engine or weather pattern. Baron-Cohen calls this ability "systematizing." .....
.....Baron-Cohen applies this framework to autism, arguing that autism is an extreme version of the normal male brain......
http://whyfiles.org/209autism/3.html
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Ishmael
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 1170
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:32 am Post subject: |
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Baron-Cohen is both right and wrong... backwards, actually - but he is a relatively intelligent man, eventually he may realize it. It should be funny if/when he realizes he's confused cause and effect - not something unheard of, a common scientific error.
Most scientists can learn from that error and correct it. Personally, I think he should have kept it to himself until he developed the theory further - that theory may promote testing and abortions, concerns which Baron-Cohen himself has voiced.
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-JR
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 11, 2008
Age: 22
Posts: 891
Location: Somewhere in Time
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: |
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Where is wrong with his theory?
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Danielismyname
Troglodyte descended
Joined: Apr 03, 2007
Posts: 5926
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| We aspie and autie guys and gals the manly men and manly...women; the blankety-blank girls and boys the NT. |
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rdos
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
Age: 47
Posts: 797
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| What is wrong with it? Quite easily, the theory builds on the unsubstantiated claim that ASDs are much more common in males than in females. This is bunk, and therefore the theory is also bunk. The problem is that when his AQ-test starts gets used for diagnoses, it will actually create a skewed gender distribution because it measures male traits. This reasoning is of course circular. |
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Ishmael
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Posts: 1170
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:41 am Post subject: |
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There is, however, evidence that some male aspergers have higher levels of testosterone - a minor comorbid issue, and ultimately meaningless.
For his theory to be true, the levels of testosterone would have to be consistant and selective for both genders.
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Kelsi
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 23, 2007
Posts: 643
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: |
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I am female, and my results fall into the extreme Type S section (more male brained than most males!)
Does anyone know of a link to the two tests (empathy quotient test and systemising quotient test) that still works?
Last edited by Kelsi on Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rdos
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
Age: 47
Posts: 797
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Ishmael wrote: | There is, however, evidence that some male aspergers have higher levels of testosterone - a minor comorbid issue, and ultimately meaningless.
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Where is this evidence?
I think I had a few questions in the quiz that are thought to correlate to testosterone (probably relative finger lengths), and the correlation was basically nonexistent. |
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Danielismyname
Troglodyte descended
Joined: Apr 03, 2007
Posts: 5926
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| rdos wrote: | | ..., the theory builds on the unsubstantiated claim that ASDs are much more common in males than in females. This is bunk, ... |
Why is it bunk?
The prevalence of Autistic Disorder is 4/5 males to 1 female, and Autistic Disorder is rarely missed; if this ratio transposes over the spectrum (as it logically should if Asperger's Disorder and Autistic Disorder are the same disorder, but differentiated by severity), the ratio of the whole spectrum should be similar as we're dealing with such a large population of those with Autistic Disorder.
I don't agree with the large 15 to 1 ratio that is sometimes listed with Asperger's; the 5 to 1 as is with Autism should be the "real" ratio. |
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rdos
Phoenix
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Age: 47
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Danielismyname wrote: | The prevalence of Autistic Disorder is 4/5 males to 1 female, and Autistic Disorder is rarely missed; if this ratio transposes over the spectrum (as it logically should if Asperger's Disorder and Autistic Disorder are the same disorder, but differentiated by severity), the ratio of the whole spectrum should be similar as we're dealing with such a large population of those with Autistic Disorder.
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I don't doubt the ratio for Autistic Disorder, but many genetic disorders are more common in males than in females. Females are protected due to their double X. We would expect a skewed ratio for the more disabling manifestations of ASDs, but this doesn't mean the personality traits have a skewed gender distribution. |
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lotusblossom
Velociraptor
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 461
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: |
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I studied Baron Cohens work for my msc and it is not quite right.
For example NT men still score much higher on EQ than they do on SQ, if AS was to do with being a man then I would expect NT men to have higher SQ than EQ (like AS people do) where as their EQ is higher than their SQ (their SQ is higher than womens).
It does not take into account social desirability, in that NT women (and men) know full well what they are suppose to be good at, so when asked (in EQ) "do you like to talk to friends about feelings or to do activities", they know the socially apropriate responce. I think the study more reflects that AS people dont conform to social desirability.
Also a womans brain must be less masculine than a mans and women with AS score the same as men with AS and if it was extreme male brain then I would expect AS women to score less.
I propose that He is not measureing masuline traits but something else for example scientific thinking.
Also Baron Cohen is mistaken in his terminology as it is an offensive term to say extreme male brain. If you devided the sample on class you could call it extreme middle class brain and Im sure aspies rate nearer middle class values than working class and people would see that this was an offensive term.
Why not say extreme scientific brain as thats what the SQ seems to measure anyway. |
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rdos
Phoenix
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Age: 47
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| lotusblossom wrote: | I propose that He is not measureing masuline traits but something else for example scientific thinking.
Why not say extreme scientific brain as thats what the SQ seems to measure anyway. |
Yes, I agree. Also, if it was real maleness, we would also see AS individuals score high on male-to-male competition, violent conflicts, making war and things like that. These typical NT-male traits are not part of Simon Baron-Cohens test, probably because he already knows they would disprove his theory. |
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samtoo
I'm a paradox...ical... fiery icecube
Joined: May 13, 2007
Age: 19
Posts: 1874
Location: England... lemme out! :(
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand... every theory with AS seems to counteract, contradict and tie it all in knots...
tbh, I don't think of myself as manly. I'm easily hurt, I'm warm to those who I can trust and I'm a sensitive musician kinda guy.
But I do have AS.
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2ukenkerl
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 4860
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| samtoo wrote: | I don't understand... every theory with AS seems to counteract, contradict and tie it all in knots...
tbh, I don't think of myself as manly. I'm easily hurt, I'm warm to those who I can trust and I'm a sensitive musician kinda guy.
But I do have AS. |
Men in almost EVERY culture have designed, made, and played instruments. The rest of the stuff you mention is no less manly. |
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ethos
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Sep 27, 2008
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| But don't a lot of Aspies, male and female, have gender id issues, especially when it comes to gender stereotypes? |
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