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Insert_Nickname_Here
Blue Jay
Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Virginia
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 Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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Actually... Buddhism is a "religion:"
re·li·gion (rĭ-lĭj'ən) n.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Definition 5 is a little bit of a stretch, though.
It can be proven that there is a god, just not necessarily any specific god.
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eamonn
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Joined: Jul 09, 2005
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Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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None of them relate to atheism though. I suppose going by the wider rarely used definitions you could call Buddhism a religion with just about everything else though including my football team, lol.
How can it be proven there is a god, that is just not true atall or we would all believe it. As it is atheist's on average tend to be more educated than religious people, particularly as they tend to come from comfortable positions wereby they can actually think and come to their own conclusions in such matters. Religion spreads heavily wherever there is poverty and despair.
Last edited by eamonn on Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Insert_Nickname_Here
Blue Jay
Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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As I said, definition 5 is a stretch, and does not fall within the connotation of religion.
I agree with the fact that aetheism is not a religion. Period.
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anarkhos
Toucan
Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 279
Location: Vancouver / Portland area
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| eamonn wrote: | So if i said i disagree with anyone being gay (which i dont) for instance then i suppose that would make my belief gay?
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Actually this analogy serves my argument and puts yours to rest.
If someone is against homosexuality, that doesn't make your belief 'gay', it makes your belief sexual. Only in your construct would such a belief be considered 'gay'.
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I think you are completely mixed up. You maybe have an extensive knowledge of the forest but have failed to spot a single tree amongst it.
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LOL 
What irony.
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The "narrow" definitions of "religion" and "atheist" arent my own, check a dictionary.
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And I used your definition to make my case that atheism is a religious belief. It pertains to the existence of god, therefore it is, even given that narrow definition, religious.
QED
| Quote: | | Oh and how would you like to pay me the groveling apology madam, by the more traditional method of a public apology or by way of a pm? |
You're the one who thought I should apologize to you. My suggestion was only to point out how utterly ridiculous you were to demand one in the first place. |
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anarkhos
Toucan
Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 279
Location: Vancouver / Portland area
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| eamonn wrote: | | How can it be proven there is a god, that is just not true atall or we would all believe it. As it is atheist's on average tend to be more educated than religious people, particularly as they tend to come from comfortable positions wereby they can actually think and come to their own conclusions in such matters. Religion spreads heavily wherever there is poverty and despair. |
LOL!
I'm especially amused how you say atheists tend to be more educated. Tis true! It is also a damning condemnation of atheism once you understand what education is.
Education is rote. It is teaching what has already been considered and current (and usually mainstream) methodologies. It has no relation to intelligence or insight or being able to think for oneself.
As for a link between religion and poverty and despair, double LOL
Just because religion provides comfort for those in despair, doesn't mean it causes it. As for poverty, the west became prosperous due in large part to religion and faith in god's gift to man: reason. Capital accumulation was practiced and promoted by the priesthood.
Let's not forget how prosperous people are in regimes which ban religion. If anything the evidence is to the contrary of your position. |
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anarkhos
Toucan
Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 279
Location: Vancouver / Portland area
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Insert_Nickname_Here wrote: | | I agree with the fact that aetheism is not a religion. Period. |
I never said any such thing. I said it was a religious belief. In other words it's a belief pertaining to religion.
For example believing in the trinity isn't a religion either. It is, however, a religious belief. So is not believing in the trinity (like gnostics). |
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eamonn
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Joined: Jul 09, 2005
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Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Your once again mixing things up my friend but i have never sought to ban religion and realise there are religious people much more intelligent than I but in times of need people turn to god and you tend to find atheists are on average people who have thought about things more as most people get indoctrined into a religion when young and thought about things rationally and came to the conclusion that god doesnt exist.
Our christian past might have been a factor in allowing us to become rich (with some types of people and classes doing a lot better than others) but they are not true christians then. It should also be noted that as we have become more "free" and "enlightened" then atheism is being seen to rise. Surely you dont advocate we go back to the days of a church controlled state? For hundreds of years christian churches ruled europe and elsewhere and it's only since the demise of the church and rise in some freedoms (including religious ones) that we have seen real social progress. People should be free to worship (or not) but to have a church controlled state is proven to not work.
As for the rest of what you say about religion and atheism. LOLOLOLOLOLOL. |
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Insert_Nickname_Here
Blue Jay
Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| anarkhos wrote: | | Insert_Nickname_Here wrote: | | I agree with the fact that aetheism is not a religion. Period. |
I never said any such thing. I said it was a religious belief. In other words it's a belief pertaining to religion.
For example believing in the trinity isn't a religion either. It is, however, a religious belief. So is not believing in the trinity (like gnostics). |
I was not refering to you, I was refering to eamonn.
Also, with the rise of the enlightenment, more people came to pay less attention to specific religion, rather the philosophical existence of any specific of any god. Thus came the rise of deism.
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anarkhos
Toucan
Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 279
Location: Vancouver / Portland area
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| eamonn wrote: | Our christian past might have been a factor in allowing us to become rich (with some types of people and classes doing a lot better than others) but they are not true christians then.
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I fail to see how those who save and invest are not true Christians.
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It should also be noted that as we have become more "free" and "enlightened" then atheism is being seen to rise. Surely you dont advocate we go back to the days of a church controlled state? For hundreds of years christian churches ruled europe and elsewhere and it's only since the demise of the church and rise in some freedoms (including religious ones) that we have seen real social progress. People should be free to worship (or not) but to have a church controlled state is proven to not work. |
Taking your last point first, the secular state has only existed in the west for the last couple hundred years while the church-controlled state has been proven to work for far longer.
It was the secular state which created a world ripe for two world wars. This is working?
Finally, atheism as a phenomenon is a symptom of the applied (classical) liberal doctrine, not the cause of it. You even admit this. Why then harp on atheism as if it has solved ANYTHING? |
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Insert_Nickname_Here
Blue Jay
Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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And the religious state did not cause wars itself *cough* the Crusades *cough*.
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Thagomizer
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
Posts: 752
Location: MA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Bec wrote: | | 'So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.' -- Bertrand Russell |
I have an even better one:
| Quote: | | Jesus prayed this prayer: "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding the truth from those who think themselves so wise and clever, and for revealing it to the childlike." --Matthew 11:25 |
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eamonn
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Joined: Jul 09, 2005
Posts: 2296
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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We could bang on about two world wars but far more people have died due to religious wars than any other kind. I dont think atheism has solved anything but rather better conditions have allowed atheism to rise.
I just find it hard to understand how a lot of people are so scared of the truth in day to day life and this makes me think that maybe a belief in god maybe has something to do with a fear of no god and another way of humans trying to protect themselves from the cutting truth.
I dont harp on about atheism, it was brought up first and then i have been defending my position. Anyway that is what this forum is for, having political or philisophical ideas to debate. Comprehende? Savvy? Understood? |
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Insert_Nickname_Here
Blue Jay
Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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Si. Da. Yes.
Some humans have an apparant need to believe in a "higher power." Some have transcended this "need."
There is no proof that any specific higher being exists. Religious texts are inaccurite. People who have visions are delusional. I (like many others) remain agnostic.
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eamonn
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Joined: Jul 09, 2005
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Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Thagomizer wrote: | | Bec wrote: | | 'So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.' -- Bertrand Russell |
I have an even better one:
| Quote: | | Jesus prayed this prayer: "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding the truth from those who think themselves so wise and clever, and for revealing it to the childlike." --Matthew 11:25 |
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Yes, sounds like the sort of thing the kings of past and japanese emporers would have their minions say to the ignorant. How can you question him for is he not our loving and great emporer.
The nutcase cults always use techniques like that, as well. You know not of the pain i feel when i act in an unrational way for the betterment of my sheep, have faith, only the true followers will see light at the end of the rainbow, yada yada etc etc.
Oh pray art out our father when will the people use the intelligence they were born with and stop using an old( regularly boring and proven many times to be flawed) book to do their thinking and positions for them? |
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Insert_Nickname_Here
Blue Jay
Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| eamonn wrote: | | Oh pray art out our father when will the people use the intelligence they were born with and stop using an old( regularly boring and proven many times to be flawed) book to do their thinking and positions for them? |
Amen.
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