Do you think religious people like this kind of defense?

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Tom
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05 Jun 2009, 10:32 am

Always on AS forums, when there has been a religious debate, someone comes saying, "just leave them alone. They're nice people and that's all that matters. So what if you can disprove their beliefs, stop being nasty, let them be." I remember one person on here said "does it matter if the bible's a bit silly and old fasioned, they're living good lives, thats what matters."
And some guy said "I know Jesus never existed, but it makes them nicer people, you shouldn't attack an idea that makes the world a better place".

Do you think they like this? If I was religious, I'd be less offended by an opponent than someone who saw me as a harmless irrelevance. At least they respect you enough to test your claims.



vibratetogether
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05 Jun 2009, 10:49 am

I imagine different people would have different reactions to this.

But the defense itself is really weak to me. They're not harmless. If they're allowing themselves to believe this rubbish, they are a part of the problem. Being religious does not make you a good person. I've met plenty of horrid human beings that would consider themselves religious.



phil777
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05 Jun 2009, 10:55 am

What you said made little sense, if you're a harmless irrelevance, why should i even bother to test your claims out of respect? o.O I can just dismiss anything you say, which is what one would likely do if you were considered as such. o.O

I reckon that you can be critical of religious beliefs, the problem is often that we can hardly balance the "strength" of the argument we bring forth, which can completly demolish the other person's. Which is why some of us might often pass as "meanies" towards them.

As for this : "I know Jesus never existed, but it makes them nicer people, you shouldn't attack an idea that makes the world a better place". That'd be good if we actually had some proof that it actually made them nicer people, but sadly, the times have shown that these "nice" ideals are lost, even if they do persist in some places.

Also, the good lives part is kinda weird, first it's a baseless positive generalization. Second, how do you define "good lives" ? Some people are wealthy, some get by with spirituality, vagueness. -.-



claire-333
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05 Jun 2009, 5:51 pm

This topic annoys me because I have been told it matters not how good my life...still going to hell.



MR_BOGAN
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05 Jun 2009, 6:02 pm

I find religious people usually start changing the argument or challenge your beliefs(well when you don't have any :lol: ).

The worse thing is when they start quoting the bible. :(

It's pointless it's like arguing with a brick wall. :wall:


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cognito
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05 Jun 2009, 6:11 pm

claire333 wrote:
This topic annoys me because I have been told it matters not how good my life...still going to hell.

I agree, they tell me to go to hell, I will say "There is no hell and your a guillible dumbass."


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Henriksson
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06 Jun 2009, 5:34 am

MR_BOGAN wrote:
The worse thing is when they start quoting the bible. :(

No, the worst thing is when they start talking about personal experiences. It's pointless to argue at that point, because they won't even consider that it's nothing more than warm, fuzzy feelings.


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gina-ghettoprincess
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06 Jun 2009, 7:55 am

My brother says, "People should be allowed to believe whatever they want, just like you want to believe in all this 'science' crap." I think he's been talking to my grandma too much... :roll:


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z0rp
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06 Jun 2009, 8:16 am

Henriksson wrote:
MR_BOGAN wrote:
The worse thing is when they start quoting the bible. :(

No, the worst thing is when they start talking about personal experiences. It's pointless to argue at that point, because they won't even consider that it's nothing more than warm, fuzzy feelings.

Yes, very much so. A good friend of mine always says he believes because of 'personal experience'. He refuses to answer any questions I ask regarding it, the most I got out of him was it was 'powerful'. It's quite hard to take him seriously.


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cognito
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06 Jun 2009, 8:45 am

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Ancalagon
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06 Jun 2009, 9:26 am

Tom wrote:
Always on AS forums, when there has been a religious debate, someone comes saying, "just leave them alone. They're nice people and that's all that matters. So what if you can disprove their beliefs, stop being nasty, let them be." I remember one person on here said "does it matter if the bible's a bit silly and old fasioned, they're living good lives, thats what matters."
And some guy said "I know Jesus never existed, but it makes them nicer people, you shouldn't attack an idea that makes the world a better place".

Do you think they like this? If I was religious, I'd be less offended by an opponent than someone who saw me as a harmless irrelevance. At least they respect you enough to test your claims.

I would find that a bit patronizing, but I wouldn't mind it too much. The reason being that most of the stuff you hear that's anti-religion isn't just a logical argument, more often than not, it's dismissive, derisive, obnoxious, polemical, or insulting. Someone accidentally being a bit patronizing in the course of trying to be nice isn't so bad.

Just look at the responses this post has gotten.

I don't mind if you try to disprove my beliefs, but don't insult me for holding them.


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vibratetogether
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06 Jun 2009, 10:58 am

Ancalagon wrote:
I would find that a bit patronizing, but I wouldn't mind it too much. The reason being that most of the stuff you hear that's anti-religion isn't just a logical argument, more often than not, it's dismissive, derisive, obnoxious, polemical, or insulting. Someone accidentally being a bit patronizing in the course of trying to be nice isn't so bad.

Just look at the responses this post has gotten.

I don't mind if you try to disprove my beliefs, but don't insult me for holding them.


There is something to be said for just getting along with everybody, and most of the time I try and do just that. However, in the proper forum, such as this, the truth can be spoken without a second thought.

If we were to merely disagree on some relatively unimportant theological matter, it would be easier to show respect for a differing opinion. However, when you believe what it is that you believe, and I can readily see the inherent absurdities and contradictions, it is very hard for me to hold my tongue. I believe it is absurd, and beyond that, it hurts us as a species.



phil777
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06 Jun 2009, 11:05 am

Well, there are still some things science can't explain, we have to agree on that =/ and sadly, personnal experience in that domain holds slightly more relevance (Until we can find a rationnal way to explain it o.O ). But ofc sometimes it seems so out of this world that we tend to just ignore it =.= .



cubedemon6073
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06 Jun 2009, 12:59 pm

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
My brother says, "People should be allowed to believe whatever they want, just like you want to believe in all this 'science' crap." I think he's been talking to my grandma too much... :roll:


I love science alot. I cannot believe your brother calls your science crap. This is a sign of sheer ignorance on your brother's part.



Henriksson
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06 Jun 2009, 1:52 pm

phil777 wrote:
Well, there are still some things science can't explain, we have to agree on that =/ and sadly, personnal experience in that domain holds slightly more relevance (Until we can find a rationnal way to explain it o.O ). But ofc sometimes it seems so out of this world that we tend to just ignore it =.= .

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Awesomelyglorious
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06 Jun 2009, 1:57 pm

Henriksson wrote:
MR_BOGAN wrote:
The worse thing is when they start quoting the bible. :(

No, the worst thing is when they start talking about personal experiences. It's pointless to argue at that point, because they won't even consider that it's nothing more than warm, fuzzy feelings.

Well, the issue is that our "warm and fuzzy feelings" can have a huge effect on how certain we are about something. Heck, certitude itself is a warm and fuzzy feeling.