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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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 Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: difficulties in discussion seminar class |
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I got my midterm grades and I got low marks for participation in my 600-level seminar class. Does anyone else have difficulties with a class that's structured like this:
We meet once a week for about three hours. We have read several articles in advance and our time together is a discussion around a table. There are about twelve of us in the class and, although each person has their turn "leading" the discussion, it is not formally structured or moderated and just takes the form of a regular discussion like a group of people might have together at a party or in a pub.
I have a hard time with group discussions. For example, yesterday I went to "coffee hour" after church and sat at a table with two other people and had a hard time because I either (unintentionally) interrupted others or I couldn't get a word in. If I had something I wanted to say and I waited for a place in the conversation to say it, the conversation had already moved on to another topic by the time there was a place for me to say something and I wasn't prepared to make a comment on the topic it had moved to. By the time I had something to say on that topic, we were on to something else. If I got too excited, I'd end up blurting out what I wanted to say and then apologize because I had just "talked all over" someone else.
I went home and slept the rest of the day - which is what I usually do on Sundays after I try my hand at coffee hour because trying to have a group conversation is so exhausting it wipes me out for the rest of the day.
Now take that difficulty and add an exponent. I know the material but I can't fit myself in to a conversation among twelve people. The conversation moves so fast that pretty soon not only can I not figure out how to get any comments in, but I can't even comprehend what's being discussed any more. I get overwhelmed and go into shutdown . . . which pretty much means I fall asleep. But it's not because I'm sleepy or tired but because of the overwhelm of it all.
For an example of comparison, I had oral surgery once and asked not to have the gas because it made me feel so awful and panicky when I had it before so they cut teeth out from my jaw on novocaine and the sounds of cutting and grinding and the hands in my mouth for so long overwhelmed me into shutdown and I kept falling asleep in the dental chair (which had the dentist in a panic and constantly waking me up, which just added to the overwhelm and shutdown.)
So it's not that I'm lazy or didn't get enough sleep the night before when I fall asleep in class, it's that I'm literally being overwhelmed by the demands of a group conversation. Does this happen to anyone else?
And then I'm so wiped out after class that I'm useless for the rest of that day and all the next day. It's fortunate that my seminar class is the last class of the week, but I don't know how I will handle it when I have to have another one of these classes in the future and can't schedule it as the last class of the week because if I had more classes that day or the next they would be seriously adversely affected by the residual stress of the seminar class.
I'm sure the professor doesn't realize what I'm struggling with because I'm in another of her classes and make lots of comments there, but it's completely different to be in a class with structure -- I raise my hand and wait to be called on, then make my comment which only has to be related to the topic of the day, not specifically to the comments others are making -- than it is to be in a "free for all" group conversation.
And I'm not registered with the ADA office because I didn't think there was anything they could help me with (what? You mean they *can* force others to be my friends? (just kidding)) But, honestly, I don't know what ADA could do for me in this class, either, since I can't think of any accomodation for a three hour group discussion.
We have to write commentaries on the articles and submit them to the prof a few days before class and I've got 100% on my commentaries so far. But I've always communicated better in writing than in speech. Last week the prof commented to the whole class that we need to remember to contribute the ideas from our commentaries to the group discussion but that just adds another layer of difficulty for me because then I'm both trying to find a way to insert myself into the conversation AND trying to find an opening to insert ideas from my commentary into the conversation.
Anyone else who has similar difficulties and reactions going through or has gone through a class like this? How did you survive it?
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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LostAlien
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 04, 2009
Posts: 374
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Can/did you tell your lecturer that you're having difficulties in the group disscussions?
Explaining how the two classes are different for you may help. Also asking for advice on how to join in the group disscussions may help as well. Hope this works for you. |
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visagrunt
Deinonychus
Joined: Oct 17, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 353
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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If you have a disability that prevents you from fully participating in an academic activity, it is incumbent upon the institution to accommodate that disability. A blind student may require braille or auditory texts; a deaf student may require interpretation for seminar participation.
Similarly, a student who presents autism spectrum conditions may need accommodation. (for example through overall course assessment based the non-seminar material).
The price, though, is that it obliges the student to come forward, declare and demonstrate the disability and seek the accommodation. Once you are out as an Aspie, you can't go back in again.
_________________
--James |
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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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I'm trying to think of a way of handling it better without going to the professor because going to her right after getting low marks will look like a grade protest and since I'm not registered with ADA (and the process is drawn out so it would take the entire rest of the semester and not be available for me to use until next semester anyway) I don't have any "official evidence" for a grade protest. So if it's not a grade protest, it might come off as whining or asking for special privileges and I don't want to do that, either, because this is the professor I'm wanting to choose as my dissertation committee chair so I've been carefully trying to build good relations with her and not bad blood. If I do talk to her about the difficulties I've had in the group discussion seminar, I want it to be after the semester is over and grades have been submitted so that I don't come across as manipulative or otherwise bad in any way.
I was hoping that someone else who has dealt with this issue has found ways of handling it other than asking for special treatment because right now, for reasons of academic politics, that's what I have on my plate.
If there's no way of dealing with it, I'll accept the low marks. I have done the math and should still come out with a B, which is the lowest acceptable passing grade in graduate school. It stings, since I've gotten all As for the rest of my graduate work, but it's a passing score and that's enough for me.
For those who have gone through ADA for issues like this, what kinds of accomodations have worked for you and the rest of the class in group discussion classes like this? ADA will not suggest accommodations, leaving it up to the student's doctor to suggest what would be helpful to the student. If I have no ideas of what would help me in this situation, there's still no point in applying to ADA.
(And if I apply to ADA, "just in case I need it later" it will be useless because they will only accommodate what is in the application so if I don't know what might give me trouble later and how I could be accommodated for it, I am out of luck when I finally find out where trouble lies because I wouldn't have mentioned it in my ADA application and would have to start all over in getting doctor's letters, etc. showing that I need something else. And, again, by the time the process is worked through, it's too late to help.)
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| visagrunt wrote: | | Similarly, a student who presents autism spectrum conditions may need accommodation. (for example through overall course assessment based the non-seminar material). |
Which would mean writing a paper and I don't want to suggest that this late in the semester because I've already scheduled out my work.
| Quote: |
The price, though, is that it obliges the student to come forward, declare and demonstrate the disability and seek the accommodation. Once you are out as an Aspie, you can't go back in again. |
This has kept me well and thoroughly silent even though I have had my diagnosis since before starting university. (In fact, it was my diagnoses that allowed me the self-understanding that enabled me to go to university at all.)
(plus see my other post in this thread about the paperwork and timing difficulties of declaring with the ADA office.)
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Age: 46
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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There are a lot of problems with groups, grandstanding a big one. With Green Party, with peace groups, with the Unitarian church.
At one discussion at a Unitarian adult discussion group on ethics, I said you have to have basic controls to keep honest people honest. This is mainstream accounting.
I was really attacked by one of the senior members, and two of her friends, and the leader basically sat there passively, until I tried to defend myself and then "calmed" me down. And yeah, it really was about that bad.
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The best role you can do is to sit back, and then easily, calmly, confidently defend someone if they are subject to this kind of bullying. Somehow the dynamics of defending someone else work much better than defending yourself. Of course, you can't do this where you are being judged on "participation."
Yeah, as each of us have probably long observed, groups can have all kinds of problems.
It's a difficult situation. It shouldn't be. But often it is. |
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Amajanshi
Raven
Joined: Apr 02, 2009
Age: 20
Posts: 101
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:53 am Post subject: |
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I have tutes twice a week which last for 2 hours each.
There's 12 people in our tute, with the tutor.
I have a love/hate relationship with tutes.
I like it coz there are fixed topics of discussion, so you can plan for it.
People are also less likely to joke and talk about crap which I don't understand or care for.
What I don't like is that whenever I make a contribution, the board person always hesitates and looks at older students in the room for their approval before it's written. Yet that doesn't happen to other students, it's annoying.
It's as if a pecking order has already been established in the tute groups  . |
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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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A pecking order for grad students definitely gets established among faculty in departments. For example, here I got close to one professor who just retired this summer (which has been devastating to me because he was my one friend and ally) and he told me that he didn't understand how the department decides who is the "bright and shining" grad student who will "carry our university's name into the future."
According to my erstwhile professor, the shining sun of our department is this guy who plays academic games like writing a bunch of unpublished papers, then using them as almost the sole citations in a paper he gets published. The one time I had to work with him on a project, he tricked me by asking what I had in mind and then after I told him, he wouldn't tell me what he had in mind. So I worked on my half and when we got to class, he had prepared everything to refute what I had come up with so I felt sort of "academically victimized" by him, if that makes sense, because I came in prepared to do a co-operative presentation and he came in prepared to "look brilliant" by shredding everything I said and did while I had no idea what he was going to do so I had no way to counter what he was saying and doing.
And, for whatever reasons, this is the guy the department is pinning all their hopes on and bending over backwards to help. It gives me pause. If this is what the faculty is most heartily encouraging, what does that tell me about the academic field in general? What does that tell me about what I've gotten into by deciding to "join this club" (club = graduate school, hopes of becoming a professor in this field.)
So, no, it doesn't surprise me that you feel a pecking order has been established. It quickly became clear to me that there is a strong pecking order, established by the faculty first and possibly echoed by the students who are looking to the faculty for their cues. And there is fierce competition in graduate school and most of it appears to be "behind the scenes", meaning that it's not incorporated in the structure of the endeavor the way it is at the undergraduate level. In undergrad classes, the competition is to get the best scores on tests and papers. At the grad level, the competition is much slipperier and I'm having a hard time grasping all the rules (assuming there even are any!) to the game. These strange and sometimes subtle behind-the-scenes social politics are very frustrating to me, more so because I don't really understand them.
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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Amajanshi
Raven
Joined: Apr 02, 2009
Age: 20
Posts: 101
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Oh I'm not in grad school.
I study Medicine, still in Preclinicals at Uni.
However the my Med year consists of Undergrad students (students who entered Uni straight from high school) and Grad students (students who did a degree before entering med).
By older students, I was referring to the Grad students in my Tute.
I feel bad for you that this guy in Grad school tricked you into revealing your thoughts.
I hope he gets punished for his actions in the future... |
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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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I wish I believed in a world where people's unkind actions carried the seeds of their own punishment, but observation has led me to believe that this is a world where people are rewarded for their acts of deception and cruelty.
It is only in the next world that he will get punished for his actions (as will I get punished for my actions.) That is so far out of my hands that it's not even worth contemplating. For now, I have to make my way through this world, seeing people get ahead by dark means and resisting the urge to turn dark myself in a futile attempt to keep up. (Honestly? It's not worth the stress.)
I am happy with being last in line, so long as there's still something left to put on my plate by the time everyone else has gotten finished with carving out their little empires. All I ask is a little dignity as I enjoy the lovely little pumpkin patch that's been left to me, overlooked by the others because it didn't flash and shine like a prize.
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Age: 46
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Sparrowrose wrote: | | I wish I believed in a world where people's unkind actions carried the seeds of their own punishment . . . |
But authenticity might have its own rewards. (at least I tell myself that!)
And it seems to work some of the time. All of us, ourselves fully included, are simply too complex for any one method to work all the time. |
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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Age: 46
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Amajanshi wrote: | . . . What I don't like is that whenever I make a contribution, the board person always hesitates and looks at older students in the room for their approval before it's written. Yet that doesn't happen to other students, it's annoying.
It's as if a pecking order has already been established in the tute groups . |
That's where someone else should stand up as your champion. Against exclusion, against cheap little hierarchies like this.
'Yes, I like it.'
'That's a different way of looking at it. Thank you.'
See, the person can be in favor of you even if they're unsure whether or not they agree with your ideas. |
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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote: |
'That's a different way of looking at it. Thank you.'
See, the person can be in favor of you even if they're unsure whether or not they agree with your ideas. |
That's one thing the professor who recently retired always did that I admired and vowed to bring into my own classroom when I finally become a professor. He made everyone feel smart, valued, and listened to. He was honest and open about his own beliefs and opinions from the start but he never played favorites on ideas or people and would tell people things like, "I never thought of it from that perspective before" or "that's a very interesting way of framing that idea" or whatever was appropriate. He never shamed or excluded anyone and I do believe that because he had faith that we were all competent, capable, intelligent people it brought those very qualities to the forefront in each of us.
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote: |
But authenticity might have its own rewards. (at least I tell myself that!) |
The way I tend to think of it is: "integrity is it's own reward."
Living life with integrity won't guarantee financial success or popularity but financial success and popularity are ephemeral and can be stripped away all too easily. At the end of the day, integrity is something one truly owns, something that can't be taken away lightly or without the owner's consent.
Of course, all that integrity doens't change the fact that my discussion seminar class is coming up again tomorrow. *sigh*
Since no one shared any coping techniques, can those who suggested filing with ADA share some of the accomodations that make such a class more accessible? Thanks.
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Age: 46
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Sparrowrose wrote: | | . . . He made everyone feel smart, valued, and listened to. He was honest and open about his own beliefs and opinions from the start but he never played favorites on ideas or people and would tell people things like, "I never thought of it from that perspective before" or "that's a very interesting way of framing that idea" or whatever was appropriate. . . . |
Very, very good! It sounds like he has an easy confidence in what he believes, but let's other people believe their own thing, too. Yeah, the skill of letting people be smart in their own way. |
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