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Tantybi
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Age: 31
Posts: 1053
Location: Wonderland
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 Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:50 am Post subject: My New Theory on the Spectrum |
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I've always thought if autism is a spectrum, then all people should fit somewhere on there (like how introvert and extrover work in the Myers Briggs). Basically, I seem to use spectrum and scale in the same manner when I think about it.
So, based on that concept, this is my theory. You got the autism spectrum as you know it, but what's missing is the other side which would be a narcissistic spectrum (I've been sold on the idea that narcissism is the exact opposite of autism). As you connect the two, you end up with two more in the middle type categories (so think circular here). One one side is the Neurotypical category where most people fall in with a little preference toward autism (most likely your average nerd) and the opposites being a little preference toward narcissism (most likely your average jock). Now on the opposite side of this circle where the two main spectrums meet is the anti-Neurotypical which would be your average psychotic ax murderer.
Now, in the autism side, psychology has made lots of wonderful little categories for it falling in many areas of the spectrum. Psychology has also created some of the narcissistic side, but what it needs to add is still Short Man Syndrome and Drama Queen Syndrome (needs a new name that's more gender friendly). I also think Spoiled Brat Syndrome needs to be added somewhere, but I'm not sure where that would fit on the spectrum (maybe the bottom of the circle, so I need an opposite for the top of the circle).
Anyway, this is my little theory right now. Still at the drafting/brainstorming phase, but I really do (as much as it sounds like a joke) want to develop it farther into something with substance, and maybe eventually submit it to the APA people.
So anyway, what do you all think about it? If your response is that I'm totally nuts, just vote that anonymously so I don't hold any grudges.
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"In the room the women come and go talking of Michelangelo." J. Alfred Prufrock |
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Nightsun
Deinonychus
Joined: Sep 24, 2009
Age: 27
Posts: 376
Location: Rome - Italy
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:24 am Post subject: |
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I don't vote. But I'll give you my idea.
Narcisistic is not the opposite of Autism. I'm both mild narcisistic and mild AS. If I do a narcisistic test online I usually end up more narcisistic than 95% of people. Narcisism is a matter of personality, AS is a matter of brain wiring. Growing up many "narcisistic" trait have gone but when I was young I was both more autistic and more narcisistic and actually I'M sure that narcisism is what saved me from a more severe autism.
I can give you some example:
As many autie I HATE talking with people, really hate it. But as many narcisistic I loved to be the center of attention... so... I talked.
As many autie I hate being with people..but as many narcisistic I loved to be the center of attention... so... I forced my self into the world.
As many autie I loved to be hyperfocused on my special interest..but as many narcisistic I loved to be the center of attention and doing something great, I known that I must have a degree to do what I want in my life so I spent a lot of time studing things I disliked (with a lot of effort) to reach a degree
etc...
I can make you an example. I have a daughter on the spectrum. She have is own language composed of strange sounds and hand signs plus a few words. Basically she has is own language. On the other way I've talked normally when young but basically everyday I've inquired my mother with "why I must talk like others?", "why I can't have my own language?", "common people language sucks", etc..
Basically I see it as a 2 different things but the total is what matter. Narcisism pushed me out of my autism shell.
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Tantybi
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Age: 31
Posts: 1053
Location: Wonderland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Nightsun wrote: | I don't vote. But I'll give you my idea.
Narcisistic is not the opposite of Autism. I'm both mild narcisistic and mild AS. If I do a narcisistic test online I usually end up more narcisistic than 95% of people. Narcisism is a matter of personality, AS is a matter of brain wiring. Growing up many "narcisistic" trait have gone but when I was young I was both more autistic and more narcisistic and actually I'M sure that narcisism is what saved me from a more severe autism.
I can give you some example:
As many autie I HATE talking with people, really hate it. But as many narcisistic I loved to be the center of attention... so... I talked.
As many autie I hate being with people..but as many narcisistic I loved to be the center of attention... so... I forced my self into the world.
As many autie I loved to be hyperfocused on my special interest..but as many narcisistic I loved to be the center of attention and doing something great, I known that I must have a degree to do what I want in my life so I spent a lot of time studing things I disliked (with a lot of effort) to reach a degree
etc...
I can make you an example. I have a daughter on the spectrum. She have is own language composed of strange sounds and hand signs plus a few words. Basically she has is own language. On the other way I've talked normally when young but basically everyday I've inquired my mother with "why I must talk like others?", "why I can't have my own language?", "common people language sucks", etc..
Basically I see it as a 2 different things but the total is what matter. Narcisism pushed me out of my autism shell. |
Well then in my theory, you would fit toward the top of the circle as the two spectrums collide. I still have yet to decide what happens in the difference of my North and South Poles, so you might be on the bottom too, but still you get the idea....
I guess I'm wanting to turn the spectrum into a 3D Globe.
I also believe a mild autism is more a personality. Someone on here said that's how Hans described it even, and I read that after I started seeing it more as personality traits than a disorder. Now severe autism, I'm not sure about mainly because I don't know too many people with severe autism. I'm not sure exactly what would be in severe narcissism either.
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Nightsun
Deinonychus
Joined: Sep 24, 2009
Age: 27
Posts: 376
Location: Rome - Italy
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Oh well if you look at it in 3d then I can agree with you 
I'm developing a model, well, they are more than 3 dimension, when I've finished I'll let you know 
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Callista
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2006
Age: 26
Posts: 3854
Location: Central USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I've met narcissists with autism. Most of the time, they were simply just sold on the idea of their own intelligence/skills/whatever, and not actively hostile to others (the "overblown self-esteem" type)... I often think that maybe this is a defense against being told you're no good all your life, and swinging to the opposite and claiming you're superior. I always think to myself, "But how long can they keep up the denial, and will they be OK when they realize it IS denial?" Maybe that's part of why I push the basic value of human life, autistic or NT, so much... I hate to see people fall into that trap, because I both hate deception and hate the thought of people being horribly disappointed when they find out about it. That, and I have some minor narcissistic tendencies myself, and I have to watch them very carefully because otherwise I become overconfident and plan only for success, which almost always ends in either burnout and subsequent failure, or failure due to overconfidence and subsequent meltdown. Neither one is pretty. You simply cannot live under the delusion that you are infallible and better than other people, because if you do, you'll never give yourself a break, nor give anybody else a break either. You have to acknowledge that you are capable of failing and that you aren't good at some things and that your value is absolutely unconnected to your inborn abilities; otherwise you'll quite simply go nuts.
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TPE2
Velociraptor
Joined: Oct 21, 2008
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: My New Theory on the Spectrum |
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| Tantybi wrote: | I've always thought if autism is a spectrum, then all people should fit somewhere on there (like how introvert and extrover work in the Myers Briggs). Basically, I seem to use spectrum and scale in the same manner when I think about it.
So, based on that concept, this is my theory. You got the autism spectrum as you know it, but what's missing is the other side which would be a narcissistic spectrum (I've been sold on the idea that narcissism is the exact opposite of autism). As you connect the two, you end up with two more in the middle type categories (so think circular here). One one side is the Neurotypical category where most people fall in with a little preference toward autism (most likely your average nerd) and the opposites being a little preference toward narcissism (most likely your average jock). Now on the opposite side of this circle where the two main spectrums meet is the anti-Neurotypical which would be your average psychotic ax murderer.
Now, in the autism side, psychology has made lots of wonderful little categories for it falling in many areas of the spectrum. Psychology has also created some of the narcissistic side, but what it needs to add is still Short Man Syndrome and Drama Queen Syndrome (needs a new name that's more gender friendly). I also think Spoiled Brat Syndrome needs to be added somewhere, but I'm not sure where that would fit on the spectrum (maybe the bottom of the circle, so I need an opposite for the top of the circle).
Anyway, this is my little theory right now. Still at the drafting/brainstorming phase, but I really do (as much as it sounds like a joke) want to develop it farther into something with substance, and maybe eventually submit it to the APA people.
So anyway, what do you all think about it? If your response is that I'm totally nuts, just vote that anonymously so I don't hold any grudges. |
I am becoming confuse: you are proposing a 1-dimension spectrum, with autism at one pole and narcisism at another, or you are proposing a 2-dimension spectrum, with autism at, let's say, "west" and narcisism at "north"? |
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Tantybi
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Age: 31
Posts: 1053
Location: Wonderland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: My New Theory on the Spectrum |
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| TPE2 wrote: | | Tantybi wrote: | I've always thought if autism is a spectrum, then all people should fit somewhere on there (like how introvert and extrover work in the Myers Briggs). Basically, I seem to use spectrum and scale in the same manner when I think about it.
So, based on that concept, this is my theory. You got the autism spectrum as you know it, but what's missing is the other side which would be a narcissistic spectrum (I've been sold on the idea that narcissism is the exact opposite of autism). As you connect the two, you end up with two more in the middle type categories (so think circular here). One one side is the Neurotypical category where most people fall in with a little preference toward autism (most likely your average nerd) and the opposites being a little preference toward narcissism (most likely your average jock). Now on the opposite side of this circle where the two main spectrums meet is the anti-Neurotypical which would be your average psychotic ax murderer.
Now, in the autism side, psychology has made lots of wonderful little categories for it falling in many areas of the spectrum. Psychology has also created some of the narcissistic side, but what it needs to add is still Short Man Syndrome and Drama Queen Syndrome (needs a new name that's more gender friendly). I also think Spoiled Brat Syndrome needs to be added somewhere, but I'm not sure where that would fit on the spectrum (maybe the bottom of the circle, so I need an opposite for the top of the circle).
Anyway, this is my little theory right now. Still at the drafting/brainstorming phase, but I really do (as much as it sounds like a joke) want to develop it farther into something with substance, and maybe eventually submit it to the APA people.
So anyway, what do you all think about it? If your response is that I'm totally nuts, just vote that anonymously so I don't hold any grudges. |
I am becoming confuse: you are proposing a 1-dimension spectrum, with autism at one pole and narcisism at another, or you are proposing a 2-dimension spectrum, with autism at, let's say, "west" and narcisism at "north"? |
The idea started with the concept of the scale. I only included adding where the idea started because I've talked about it before on this forum (usually in threads talking about something else) and because I'm trying to show a method to my madness.
So the scale is more of a line that ends with narcissism on one side and autism on the other side and NTs in between. I'm starting to realize a line is not a good paradigm. So I've shifted my concept into a globe. I really wasn't sure at first why I felt it should be that way, but Nightsun was a perfect example of why, and I'm sure I'll see other reasons in time. Either way, imagine a globe. On the west is Narcissism. East is Autism. Front is Neurotypical. Back is Anti-Neurotypical. I have yet to decide what actually is the top and bottom, but if all those four sides were merging closer together toward the top and closer together toward the bottom, someone who possesses qualities of both autism and narcissism would fall closer to the top or the bottom where they overlap.
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"In the room the women come and go talking of Michelangelo." J. Alfred Prufrock |
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Tantybi
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Age: 31
Posts: 1053
Location: Wonderland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Nightsun wrote: | Oh well if you look at it in 3d then I can agree with you
I'm developing a model, well, they are more than 3 dimension, when I've finished I'll let you know |
See I'm not finished with this either. If you don't want me to see your work in progress, that's cool, but I'd love your opinion nonetheless if you want to go further into it.
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"In the room the women come and go talking of Michelangelo." J. Alfred Prufrock |
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TPE2
Velociraptor
Joined: Oct 21, 2008
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: My New Theory on the Spectrum |
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| Tantybi wrote: | | TPE2 wrote: | | Tantybi wrote: | I've always thought if autism is a spectrum, then all people should fit somewhere on there (like how introvert and extrover work in the Myers Briggs). Basically, I seem to use spectrum and scale in the same manner when I think about it.
So, based on that concept, this is my theory. You got the autism spectrum as you know it, but what's missing is the other side which would be a narcissistic spectrum (I've been sold on the idea that narcissism is the exact opposite of autism). As you connect the two, you end up with two more in the middle type categories (so think circular here). One one side is the Neurotypical category where most people fall in with a little preference toward autism (most likely your average nerd) and the opposites being a little preference toward narcissism (most likely your average jock). Now on the opposite side of this circle where the two main spectrums meet is the anti-Neurotypical which would be your average psychotic ax murderer.
Now, in the autism side, psychology has made lots of wonderful little categories for it falling in many areas of the spectrum. Psychology has also created some of the narcissistic side, but what it needs to add is still Short Man Syndrome and Drama Queen Syndrome (needs a new name that's more gender friendly). I also think Spoiled Brat Syndrome needs to be added somewhere, but I'm not sure where that would fit on the spectrum (maybe the bottom of the circle, so I need an opposite for the top of the circle).
Anyway, this is my little theory right now. Still at the drafting/brainstorming phase, but I really do (as much as it sounds like a joke) want to develop it farther into something with substance, and maybe eventually submit it to the APA people.
So anyway, what do you all think about it? If your response is that I'm totally nuts, just vote that anonymously so I don't hold any grudges. |
I am becoming confuse: you are proposing a 1-dimension spectrum, with autism at one pole and narcisism at another, or you are proposing a 2-dimension spectrum, with autism at, let's say, "west" and narcisism at "north"? |
The idea started with the concept of the scale. I only included adding where the idea started because I've talked about it before on this forum (usually in threads talking about something else) and because I'm trying to show a method to my madness.
So the scale is more of a line that ends with narcissism on one side and autism on the other side and NTs in between. I'm starting to realize a line is not a good paradigm. So I've shifted my concept into a globe. I really wasn't sure at first why I felt it should be that way, but Nightsun was a perfect example of why, and I'm sure I'll see other reasons in time. Either way, imagine a globe. On the west is Narcissism. East is Autism. Front is Neurotypical. Back is Anti-Neurotypical. I have yet to decide what actually is the top and bottom, but if all those four sides were merging closer together toward the top and closer together toward the bottom, someone who possesses qualities of both autism and narcissism would fall closer to the top or the bottom where they overlap. |
Why not a square, with Autism at lower-left, Narcisism at upper-right, Nightsun at upper-left, Neurotypical at the center and I-don't-know-what at lower-right? |
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 3540
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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You do pick the fun ones.
I would think more than a globe, for I can see it, and it is personality times neurology.
This site is a diverse lot, as diverse as the world. It is slanted to some personalities, but that might just be the internet, and then there are always a huge number of lurkers who are watching your every move, but never post.
While Myers Briggs ran out at 16 types, and posted percentages, that is not accounting for all of the above plus some degree of autism.
Autism is a love it or hate it deal, and as a mostly recluse, it helps to like myself. What the whole range is is open for study.
I am happy with my life, myself, my work, and some folks think that is so wrong.
So now we get the perciever, all of the above looking at all of the above.
Then there is style, yes, some are hostile and dangerous, some just dumb and dangerous, and few are accepting. So the personality I use changes to work the crowd. What you see is only a facet of what is there. I have the same problem, dealing with the world I am the roles I play.
The only real me is alone on top of a mountain after a month and a half. Then it is fairly pure me. These sort and compile times are rare, but the person who comes down is not the one who went up. It is another type of unusual person.
I seem to have nothing but confusion to add to this thread.
I think it will take structure to cover all, and color for degrees. |
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X_Parasite
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 29, 2006
Age: 19
Posts: 712
Location: Right here.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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There's a specific genetic mutation associated with the spectrum.
If you don't have it, then you're not on the spectrum. |
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Ambivalence
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 09, 2008
Posts: 613
Location: PEEuhLEE
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| X_Parasite wrote: | There's a specific genetic mutation associated with the spectrum.
If you don't have it, then you're not on the spectrum. |
It would be very nice if it was so clear cut as that, but it isn't.  Just because a particular piece of genetic code is associated with ASDs, or cancer or anything else, it doesn't mean that that piece of code is the only thing involved, or even that the association is causal.
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Rocky
Toucan
Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 254
Location: In the third dimension.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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I did not vote, since there was no choice for "probably accurate to a large extent." I have always viewed the entire human population as part of a larger spectrum as you described.
On the question about having AS or not being determined by neurology alone, I am not sure. Neurology can cause the traits, but so can environment and other factors. It depends on how it is defined. The brain changes during one's lifetime in any case. Until more research is done with MRI brain scans, it is an open question. If anyone can enlighten me otherwise, I would be glad to hear it.
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Callista
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2006
Age: 26
Posts: 3854
Location: Central USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Ambivalence wrote: | | X_Parasite wrote: | There's a specific genetic mutation associated with the spectrum.
If you don't have it, then you're not on the spectrum. |
It would be very nice if it was so clear cut as that, but it isn't. Just because a particular piece of genetic code is associated with ASDs, or cancer or anything else, it doesn't mean that that piece of code is the only thing involved, or even that the association is causal. |
You may be thinking of Rett's? That IS associated with a specific mutation, MECP2. Rett's is only one autism spectrum condition, and a tiny minority compared to the bulk of the spectrum. There are mutations that are found more often on the spectrum, but none of them so far have gone between "found in significantly more autistic than NT". They still get excited when they find a piece of DNA that explains two or three percent of the spectrum!
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Engineering student. Gamer. Christian. Asexual. Information Addict. Deal with it!
Reports from a Resident Alien:
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0_equals_true
Genuine Charlatan
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 27
Posts: 6992
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Just read a small amount and I knew you were barking up the wrong tree. You can't say that narcissism is the opposite of ASD, as that would imply that a. they don't coincide indepently b. there is such a thing as "opposites" in neurophysiology.
Just like those who say that Williams syndrome is the opposite of ASD are barking up the wrong tree.
One of the things people get wrong is they take the word spectrum, and assume that means two points and a line.
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