The difference between tantrum and meltdown......

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OK - By now some of you know that I am trying to figure out the cause of my DS' issues and how I can help him. He has been dx'd Bipolar and AS, and sometimes interventions recommended for one is harmful for the other! So, help me sort this one out.

On Fridays, I get off work early and do the grocery shopping while he is home with sitter. Well, yesterday the babysitter had the day off, so I picked DS up from school and was going to take him shopping with me. He thinks this is a great idea and wants to go too. We get to the store and he reminds me that we need an ingredient from the beauty store (next to the grocery store) for a science project he wants to conduct . I agree to go buy the ingredient. When we get into the store, he starts looking at black hair dye, and decides that today is the day to dye his hair black. After looking at the dyes for a few minutes, I tell hime that I am OK with doing some chuncks of color (like highlites) but I can't live with his whole head being dyed black. (keep in mind he's 10).

He wont leave the store. I decided that I was not going to give in on this one. It took 45 minutes before he would leave. We couldn't do the grocery shopping. In the car, he told me that he was not going to speak any longer. When we got home, I figured I would give him his space to cool off. I was in the kitchen, he handed me a scribbled not that said "Bye mom forever". He walked away, went upstairs and strated tryin to climb over the top stair rail (that is over the first floor.

Of course, my 15 y/o and I were right behind him, got him off the rail and restrained him until he was calm (maybe 15 minutes). He was then over it completely.

I think this was a tantrum BUT was it caused by the change in routine? What about his inability to control his impulse to try to jump off the stairs? Had we called for help, by the time they got here he would have been fine.

What do I do about this stuff? It is making me nuts!

BTW - I am not looking for feedback telling me I should have let him get the dye. I give him the most freedom of his appearance and personal space compared to any of his peers. He cares deeply about having friends and this would have caused him more social problems than he could manage. I /he already get looks about his long hair and clothing choices. Dyed black hair in 5th grade is too much.

Thanks

The test I've run on my kids to help me see the difference has been to give in (I picked something unimportant). A child who calms when they get what they wanted is throwing a tantrum. The one who still cannot is in a meltdown. A little oversimplified, but I think that is the main difference.

My AS son looks physically different when he is in a meltdown. I can see it.

We do need to know the difference, between tantrums should not be given into, as you know, and meltdowns must be (in a manner of speaking), as you also know.

I would ask your son what made him decide that had to be "today," now that he is well past the situation, and see what he says.

Would your son have done serious harm to himself if he had climbed over that stair railing? I can't tell from your description. Do you feel his threat was immature and reactionary and never at all serious, or do you feel he really did want to hurt/kill himself? If it's the latter, I think your issue is MUCH bigger than deciphering tantrums vs meltdowns, and you need to take him very soon to see a therapist of psychiatrist because that's a serious concern especially at such a young age, and especially if he's on any meds that are known to cause suicidal thoughts in young people.

If it was just an idle threat, then I think you may never know in this case whether it was tantruming or a meltdown, because sometimes that intense need to have that thing in the store is stemming from something they are feeling which is AS or sensory rooted. In any case, someone of his age having that response strikes me as emminently AS related.

I get this type of thing all the time from my daughter. If he is like her, it's not because of the change of routine it's because he didn't get what he wanted, the dye. My daughter fixates on something she wants and it becomes an all encompassing thought that she can't control. The first day we were on holiday she wanted an icecream from a particular shop. We went there but it was way to busy so I said we'd go back another time. She made our lives hell for the next 2 days. Even she didn't know why she was feeling such rage. She only calmed down when she eventually got the icecream.

I think the problem stems from putting their thoughts on one path and then expecting them to change path and they can't do it. We wouldn't have had any problem with my daughter if I'd have said no to the icecream straight off. She's not spoilt, she can handle no. But I didn't, we went to have a look. This to her is the yes path and she cannot switch back to the no one. Perhaps this is what your son is struggling with?

(PS I wouldn't have bought him the dye either.)

So based on your description motherknowsbest, your daughter's reactions are meltdowns not tantrums, but they are meltdowns that are unavoidable (in some cases), correct?

I'm so glad you posted this. I have this issue too (and I am an adult). It's a fixation that spins out of control and requires a lot of energy to reign in. When it happens to me, I am not trying to manipulate though it may seem that way. Sometimes I can see myself losing control and even tell people it's happening, but it's only something I've learned to recognize within the last few years. In my case it's brought on by stress and not enough sleep. Whatever it is that triggers the obsession is irrelevant.

It's very important to try to help your kids find an off switch, recognize that they are melting down or get them to talk about what they're really feeling. When this issue is attached to something less concrete than hair dye or an ice cream it just has to play itself out.

If it is a something, remember to use very specific language to explain when they can have or why they cannot have something. My son handles himself much better if we say "We will go outside after Mommy and Daddy finish eating" than if we say "We can go back outside later". And he will watch our plates like a little hawk

Posting to reaffirm that this is probably the case, I can relate to it.

This is very useful for me, we have this issue with my son - can you elaborate or give examples about "finding an off switch?" My son becomes incapable of taking in any information when this happens.

This is very useful for me, we have this issue with my son - can you elaborate or give examples about "finding an off switch?" My son becomes incapable of taking in any information when this happens.

Thanks everyone - This has given me much to think about. It is very interesting to hear that he isn't alone!

Caitlin - We have spent thousands of dollars and hours with therapists and psychatrists. They are always willing to give me more meds. Because once DS is out of "the moment", it is over for him and he is safe. It seems pretty awful to send him to a hospital or give him more drugs. No therapist or Psychatrist has the magic button or pill for this one.

My questioning the meltdown v. tantrum was about how I can help avoid it in the future (I think the two are handled differently, no?) It is pretty horrid to deal with. BTW - the railing was on the 2nd floor overlooking the 1st floor. It wouldn't likely kill him, but would have hurt him.

I'm thinking that I should have been clearer with the no to start with and I probably just shouldn't have gone in the store at all. Too many temptations.

Now that is one I figured out a while ago. By the time my AS son was 11 or 12, and seemed safe to leave at home for short periods, I started running errands without him. He is soooo much happier that way, and soooo many other issues are avoided. If we do go to the store together, it is always very targeted, with either me promising "we'll only try on shoes, and go to no more than 3 stores" or me clarifying "we are only going to buy the materials you have requested for you model project, nothing else."

I felt a little disturbed by DW's post. If I have a meltdown and then finally things go the way I expected, I calm down, was that a tantrum I threw?

Don't all aspie kids calm down when things go the way they expected? What about when we are forced in situations that causes a meltdown and we leave and we are calm now? Same as when an autistic child meltsdown in the laundry detergant aisle because he couldn't take all the smell from the detergant so when his mother got him away from that aisle, he stopped.

I hate having them so I try and avoid them but I am always wanting my way or else I get anxious or tense and it leads to anxiety and it leads to a meltdown. I just avoid people that way and work my way around it to be flexible.

The following differences generally apply.

Tantrum: Manipulative activity in order to have things their way.
Meltdown: Emotional response to a situation (or denial) that doesn't make sense to them.

Tantrum: aggressive.
Meltdown: defensive (though it may appear aggressive due to body language mistakes).

Tantrum: because i want it.
Meltdown: any more complex reason.

Suggestion for dialing down a meltdown;
- Realize that the child is experiencing a variation of the 'fight or flight' response, and it may help to position yourself out of direct opposition (break eye contact, move to the side, sit on the floor, etc)
- Ask them to explain what is confusing them. Make sure not to contradict, interrupt, or downplay their reasons. Let them gush. If you have issue with their logic, talk about it later on, after the moment has passed. They need to spill out the energy of their reason, and have someone hear their logic (or get away from the disturbance) to end it.

(a tantrum usually won't end until they're tired or they win)

I think OddFiction clarified it a bit.

But, overall, sure, if I remove my son from a noisy overloaded place when he is having a meltdown, he'll calm down. But that isn't what I meant by giving the child what they want. Removal from the overload is a need; having mom keep her promise is a need. But giving a child a cookie before dinner time because they have decided they want a cookie, when getting afternoon cookies is not something they can reasonably expect ... not a need. My daughter has been known to throw tantrums over cookies, and turn happy on a dime if you give her one. My son can't settle down over something like that; he'll no longer want the cookie.

But, sure, he'll still want to leave the shopping mall; he'll NEED to leave the shopping mall.

Does that help at all?

I too figured out that not bringing him shopping was best. But, the babysitter had the day off, so I have DS until Tuesday. We needed food before that! And.... he reminded me about the higher volume peroxide we needed to make the science project....

Anyway, as a consequence, the next morning he stayed home with his older brother while I went shopping and he had to do whatever his brother wanted him to as payment for his babysitting time. He got of extremely easily - his brother made DS sit on his back while he did push ups, so he could get a better workout.

We had a great day yesterday. We went to a wedding reception and all of us had a good time (rare!) They had an area where kids could pitch and have their throw speed measured. They also had a dart board. This area was kind of removed from all of the people, so MUCH quieter. It was a sports theme, so there were cracker Jacks and those long rope licorace, sliders and tiny corn dogs. Today we have stayed home and he has been able to make videos all day (special interest). He's doing some pretty creative stuff.

All in all - you would never know that 48 hours ago this child was trying to throw himself off a 2nd story!

I had to think about this for a while to try to give a decent answer, and I'm not sure I have one. It's all dependent on the child. The best strategy is to learn when it it coming and try to nip it before the spiral starts. My husband is very good about pointing things out to me and that has been helpful. For instance, I usually have a complete and total melt down before he travels. Every time. I never realized it until he brought it up. Instead of flipping out this time I have been working on preparing so things will be a little easier while he's away. That was my off.

My son has always been the same - I can shut it down most often with counting. In fact, he's so familiar with this strategy that at 3 he does it himself. If counting doesn't help, singing a song he likes or playing a word association game (because he's so little it's simple - A is for alligator, B is for bear, ect) usually does. If all of these fail I have to just let him fall apart and keep him from hurting himself (he's a big thrower of things - throws his toys, throws himself on the floor and so on). It's not common for him to flip out like that.

I like OddFiction's response. It's an excellent description. I had never thought about it as fight or flight but that is actually what it is.