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alexptrans
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:58 am    Post subject: Psychopathy, Asperger's: a 'serious' combination Reply with quote

What do you guys think about this article?

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Psychopathy,+Asperger%27s%3A+a+%27serious%27+combination%3B+Dahmer+also+had...-a0127200931
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wavefreak58
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems a bit fluffy, academically speaking.

I really hate posthumous diagnosis of anything. Dahmer is an outlier by any standard. I suppose studying him might be useful, but forming diagnostic conclusions based on secondary information and hearsay in such a fringe case strikes me as highly speculative.
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StuartN
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J. Arturo Silva (or Arturo J. Silva, he uses both) seems to be a self-publicist pushing this idea of Asperger's syndrome and psychopathy, but I don't see any evidence that he ever met or examined Dahmer, or any evidence that other people take his views at all seriously. It gets him headlines.
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Shadi2
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psychopathy is serious, I don't think Asperger makes any difference.
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wavefreak58
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically, psychopathy is not even an official diagnosis. It was replaced in the DSM-III with anti-social personality disorder.The ICD-10 also has no psychopath diagnosis. The DSM-V is adding back a psychopathic sub type "antisocial/psychopathic" to personality disorders,

It would also seem that autism and psychopathy are mutually exclusive. On criteria for antisocial/psychopathic diagnosis is:
Quote:

Use of cunning, craft, or subterfuge to influence or control others; casual use of others to one’s own advantage; use of seduction, charm, glibness, or ingratiation to achieve one’s own end


A primary feature of autism is the inability to decode social cues and properly navigate personal interactions. The psychopath, while having no empathy, DOES understand the rules of social interaction as the are able to take advantage of the rules to coerce and control. You can't have it both ways. If you are autistic, by definition you don't learn the social rules needed to be manipulative.

Another feature of autism is literal thinking that often leads to socially inappropriate adherence to truthfulness. But the psychopath is noted for pathological lying

Quote:
Dishonesty, untruthfulness; embellishment or fabrication when relating events; misrepresentation of self; fraudulence


In short, a psychopathic autistic is a contradiction. An autistic by DEFINITION lacks the fundamental skills that a psychopath uses to ply his craft.

But what do I know?
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rpcarnell
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

However, Ed Gein seemed to display several traits typical of aspies.
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jackbus01
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this article is absolute crap. I'll summarize:

1. Pyschopathy--I'll assume they are talking about anti-social personality disorder
and Aspergers Syndrome are almost opposites, how can they be a combination!
2. This article is disjointed and lacks a clear point.
3. Posthumous diagnosis is really dicey for any reason.
4. Just generally poorly written

I would be more specific but this article is not worth my time.
In fact if this article were any worse, it would be so bad as to be funny.
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jackbus01
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StuartN wrote:
J. Arturo Silva (or Arturo J. Silva, he uses both) seems to be a self-publicist pushing this idea of Asperger's syndrome and psychopathy, but I don't see any evidence that he ever met or examined Dahmer, or any evidence that other people take his views at all seriously. It gets him headlines.


See, I don't get it. It's not that I agree or disagree, its just that the article is very poorly written. When something is of this poor quality it is hard to take it seriously anyway. Even if the title has the word "serious" in it.
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Poke
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jackbus01 wrote:
1. Pyschopathy--I'll assume they are talking about anti-social personality disorder
and Aspergers Syndrome are almost opposites, how can they be a combination!


Asperger's and ASPD aren't remotely close to being "opposites".

By the way, no offense, but, is there any way you could change your avatar? It looks like your mother has caught you on the toilet masturbating. I find the image quite distracting.
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rpcarnell
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Similarities between psychopaths and aspies:

(1) Both don't mind being alone. Going to the movies alone, dating themselves, self-pleasuring, etc, etc. Both can be loners
(2) Both have to learn the rules of society. They both learn that they are different and learn how to mingle. Psychopaths do it better than aspies.
(3) Both can be smart
(4) Both can be weird
(5) One lacks empathy. The other one cannot understand it.

The differences are:

(1) Aspies have the word "target" on their backs whereas psychopaths have the words "Don't f'''ck with me" written on their backs
(2) Aspies are rarely charming, if ever. Psychopaths can be charming.
(3) Psychopaths lack remorse. Aspies do not.
(4) Psychopaths usually have strong egos. Aspies tend to have low self stem.

Think Data vs Lore, if you are a fan of Star Trek
Or, Dexter vs the Big Bang's Sheldon.
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jackbus01
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poke wrote:
jackbus01 wrote:
1. Pyschopathy--I'll assume they are talking about anti-social personality disorder
and Aspergers Syndrome are almost opposites, how can they be a combination!


Asperger's and ASPD aren't remotely close to being "opposites".

Agree they are not "opposites", but I don't see how it would someone could have both. Antisocial personality disorder and Aspergers syndrome have so many contradictions in symptoms.

Poke wrote:

By the way, no offense, but, is there any way you could change your avatar? It looks like your mother has caught you on the toilet masturbating. I find the image quite distracting.

Laughing now I can't get that thought out of my head, quite an imagination there Laughing

My avatar is me. Why do you find it distracting, go on tell me. Humor me.
By the way, no offense, of course, but you need an avatar. When people don't have an avatar like yourself it is like they are lacking something in life--no offense.

I probably won't change my avatar anytime soon. Smile
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Poke
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jackbus01 wrote:
Agree they are not "opposites", but I don't see how it would someone could have both. Antisocial personality disorder and Aspergers syndrome have so many contradictions in symptoms.


The diagnostic barriers we erect between these types of conditions are ultimately arbitrary. The relationship between them is better represented by a Venn diagram then two sets of artificially derived, mutually exclusive traits.

Quote:
My avatar is me. Why do you find it distracting, go on tell me. Humor me.


I already told you. It looks like your mother has caught you on the toilet masturbating. Is any further explanation needed? If you logged into a forum like this, attempted to read it, and found it littered with an image of a man being caught (by his mother) masturbating on the toilet, wouldn't you find it distracting?

Quote:
By the way, no offense, of course, but you need an avatar.


I'll look for one. I'll let you know if/when I find one.
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Poke
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpcarnell wrote:
(5) One lacks empathy. The other one cannot understand it.


This is an arbitrary and possibly meaningless distinction. Let's just say they both have "empathy issues".

Quote:
The differences are:

(1) Aspies have the word "target" on their backs whereas psychopaths have the words "Don't f'''ck with me" written on their backs
(2) Aspies are rarely charming, if ever. Psychopaths can be charming.
(3) Psychopaths lack remorse. Aspies do not.
(4) Psychopaths usually have strong egos. Aspies tend to have low self stem.


I find this black & white assessment of the conditions in question to be, at best, highly unrealistic. If you haven't met an Aspie who's charming, lacks remorse, has "don't f*ck with me" written on their back (so to speak), or has a "strong ego", I assume you haven't met many.
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anbuend
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wavefreak58 wrote:
Technically, psychopathy is not even an official diagnosis. It was replaced in the DSM-III with anti-social personality disorder.The ICD-10 also has no psychopath diagnosis. The DSM-V is adding back a psychopathic sub type "antisocial/psychopathic" to personality disorders,

It would also seem that autism and psychopathy are mutually exclusive. On criteria for antisocial/psychopathic diagnosis is:
Quote:

Use of cunning, craft, or subterfuge to influence or control others; casual use of others to one’s own advantage; use of seduction, charm, glibness, or ingratiation to achieve one’s own end


A primary feature of autism is the inability to decode social cues and properly navigate personal interactions. The psychopath, while having no empathy, DOES understand the rules of social interaction as the are able to take advantage of the rules to coerce and control. You can't have it both ways. If you are autistic, by definition you don't learn the social rules needed to be manipulative.

Another feature of autism is literal thinking that often leads to socially inappropriate adherence to truthfulness. But the psychopath is noted for pathological lying

Quote:
Dishonesty, untruthfulness; embellishment or fabrication when relating events; misrepresentation of self; fraudulence


In short, a psychopathic autistic is a contradiction. An autistic by DEFINITION lacks the fundamental skills that a psychopath uses to ply his craft.

But what do I know?


Actually I've met the very occasional person who seems to genuinely be both autistic and a sociopath. It's possible, just rare. Lying is possible for autistic people, it's just distasteful or difficult for a lot of us. (I used to lie, although I'm far from a sociopath. I rarely lie now because it feels so awful to do it and I am so bad at it.) As for the glibness etc., there's a way that can translate into an autistic person's skills. Autistic people can be charming and charismatic, just not in the same exact ways that nonautistic people can be. Autistic people can be highly manipulative. All of these skills can be present in isolation, or in combination. I've known autistic people who lied all the time, who manipulated all the time, etc. Sometimes autism made them worse at it, sometimes it gave them an air of innocence that helped them manage to do it. That air of innocence can often be used to really get people to do what they wanted. I even once saw an autistic probable-sociopath discussing their strategy of using their autism status as a way to look pitiful and innocent and not at all capable of hurting people the way they always did, so that they could get away with anything. A skilled autistic manipulator can even use the image of the guileless autistic to their advantage, sickening as that is.

But I really think the core feature of a sociopath is a lack of conscience. All the other feature are just common outgrowths of it, not set in stone. (And common outgrowths in nonautistic people, at that.) And autistic people are capable of a whole lot of nonstereotypical attributes, just because some of us are unable or unwilling to do something doesn't mean all of us are.

All this said, the idea that Dahmer was autistic is just.... pretty disgusting, and I question the motives, skills, and ethics of people promoting that view.
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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One question I have about Dahmer is was he really a loner? On the one hand, you have the media and various experts saying he is, then reporting that he went to this bar and that bar. Does a loner go out to bars and hang out? That doesn't sound like a loner. That sounds like someone who wants to be with people.
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