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Did Psalms 132 & Isaiah 9&11 accurately predict that Jesus would be a descendent of David?
Psalms and Isaiah nailed it! 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Well, maybe 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
It was just an odd coincidence 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Absolutely not! 60%  60%  [ 3 ]
Just reveal the results 40%  40%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 5

pandabear
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20 Feb 2011, 12:03 pm

Continuing with our series of debates regarding Old Testament passages purported as prophecies that passages from the Gospels (or elsewhere in the New Testament) fulfilled concerning Jesus as the Messiah.

(http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt151898.html)

This will be the second in our series of debates. Again, I am using the Good News Translation, or GNT, which I think is the best.

First, the Old Testament Passages:

Psalms 132:11

Quote:
You made a solemn promise to David”
a promise you will not take back:
I will make one of your sons king,
and he will rule after you.


Isaiah 9:7
Quote:
His royal power will continue to grow;
his kingdom will always be at peace.
He will rule as King David's successor,
basing his power on right and justice,
from now until the end of time.
The Lord Almighty is determined to do all this.


Isaiah 11:1
Quote:
The royal line of David is like a tree that has been cut down; but just as new branches sprout from a stump, so a new king will arise from among David's descendants.


Isaiah 11:10
Quote:
A day is coming when the new king from the royal line of David will be a symbol to the nations. They will gather in his royal city and give him honor.


The above passages are taken to indicate that Jesus was to be from the family of David, the son of Jesse, based upon the following New Testament passages:

Matthew
Quote:
1:1-17 This is the list of the ancestors of Jesus Christ, a descendant of David, who was a descendant of Abraham. From the time after the exile in Babylon to the birth of Jesus, the following ancestors are listed: Jehoiachin, Shealtiel, Zerubbabel, Abiud, Eliakim, Azor, Zadok, Achim, Eliud, Eleazar, Matthan, Jacob, and Joseph, who married Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was called the Messiah. So then, there were fourteen generations from Abraham to David, and fourteen from David to the exile in Babylon, and fourteen from then to the birth of the Messiah.

9:27 Jesus left that place, and as he walked along, two blind men started following him. "Have mercy on us, Son of David!" they shouted.

15:22 A Canaanite woman who lived in that region came to him. "Son of David!" she cried out. "Have mercy on me, sir! My daughter has a demon and is in a terrible condition."

20:30-31 Two blind men who were sitting by the road heard that Jesus was passing by, so they began to shout, "Son of David! Have mercy on us, sir!" The crowd scolded them and told them to be quiet. But they shouted even more loudly, "Son of David! Have mercy on us, sir!"

21:9 The crowds walking in front of Jesus and those walking behind began to shout, "Praise to David's Son! God bless him who comes in the name of the Lord! Praise be to God!"

21:15 The chief priests and the teachers of the Law became angry when they saw the wonderful things he was doing and the children shouting in the Temple, "Praise to David's Son!"

22:42 When some Pharisees gathered together, Jesus asked them, "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose descendant is he?"
"He is David's descendant", they answered.


Mark 10: 47-48
Quote:
When he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to shout, "Jesus! Son of David! Have mercy on me!" Many of the people scolded him and told him to be quiet. But he shouted even more loudly, "Son of David, have mercy on me!"


Luke
Quote:
1: The angel said to her, "Don't be afraid, Mary; God has been gracious to you. You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High God. The Lord God will make him a king, as his ancestor David was, and he will be the king of the descendants of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end!

2. Joseph went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to the town of Bethlehem in Judea, the birthplace of King David. Joseph went there because he was a descendant of David.5 He went to register with Mary, who was promised in marriage to him. She was pregnant,6 and while they were in Bethlehem, the time came for her to have her baby.

3. When Jesus began his work, he was about thirty years old. He was the son, so people thought, of Joseph, who was the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, the son of Jesse, etc. etc.

18. He cried out, "Jesus! Son of David! Have mercy on me!" The people in front scolded him and told him to be quiet. But he shouted even more loudly, "Son of David! Have mercy on me!"


Acts
Quote:
2. My friends, I must speak to you plainly about our famous ancestor King David. He died and was buried, and his grave is here with us to this very day. He was a prophet, and he knew what God had promised him: God had made a vow that he would make one of David's descendants a king, just as David was. David saw what God was going to do in the future, and so he spoke about the resurrection of the Messiah when he said, "He was not abandoned in the world of the dead; his body did not rot in the grave."

13. It was Jesus, a descendant of David, whom God made the Savior of the people of Israel, as he had promised.


Romans
Quote:
1:3 It is about his Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: as to his humanity, he was born a descendant of David.

15: 12 And again, Isaiah says,"A descendant of Jesse will appear; he will come to rule the Gentiles, and they will put their hope in him."


So, what do you think? Did Psalms 132:11 and Isaiah 9 and 11 accurately predict that Jesus would be a descendent of David? Or what?



ruveyn
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20 Feb 2011, 12:05 pm

O.K. How long do we have to wait for this promise to be redeemed?

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pandabear
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20 Feb 2011, 12:20 pm

We still have a lot of Old Testament forecasts to work through, which I'm guessing will take at least a month or two.



Philologos
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20 Feb 2011, 1:45 pm

pandabear wrote:
We still have a lot of Old Testament forecasts to work through, which I'm guessing will take at least a month or two.


I don't THINK you got ruveyn's question. But a useful thing to know. I will go suck my thumb in the corner until it is done. As for your query and those upcoming in the series, asked and answered. Please move on, Counselor.



pandabear
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20 Feb 2011, 2:47 pm

I think that Psalm 132:11 has already been fulfilled:

Quote:
You made a solemn promise to David”
a promise you will not take back:
I will make one of your sons king,
and he will rule after you.


That would have been Solomon.

Looking a bit further into Isaiah 9:

Quote:
The people who walked in darkness
have seen a great light.
They lived in a land of shadows,
but now light is shining on them.
You have given them great joy, Lord;
you have made them happy.
They rejoice in what you have done,
as people rejoice when they harvest grain
or when they divide captured wealth.
For you have broken the yoke that burdened them
and the rod that beat their shoulders.
You have defeated the nation
that oppressed and exploited your people,
just as you defeated the army of Midian long ago.
The boots of the invading army
and all their bloodstained clothing
will be destroyed by fire.
A child is born to us!
A son is given to us!
And he will be our ruler.
He will be called,
Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Eternal Father,
Prince of Peace.
His royal power will continue to grow;
his kingdom will always be at peace.
He will rule as King David's successor,
basing his power on right and justice,
from now until the end of time.
The Lord Almighty is determined to do all this.


There is a section where the Judeans are thrilled that the Assyrians have been defeated. Then, Isaiah seems to be talking about King Ahaz' son, who is to be named Immanuel. It seems like Isaiah is getting an eensy bit blasphemous--declaring that the kid is going to be called Mighty God and Eternal Father, and that he is going to rule from "now until the end of time."



MCalavera
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20 Feb 2011, 5:45 pm

There is some Messianic prophesying in the Old Testament, but that doesn't mean Jesus has to be the Messiah. Nobody has to be. It's all mythical predictions.



pandabear
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24 Feb 2011, 5:37 pm

Philologos wrote:
pandabear wrote:
We still have a lot of Old Testament forecasts to work through, which I'm guessing will take at least a month or two.


I don't THINK you got ruveyn's question. But a useful thing to know. I will go suck my thumb in the corner until it is done. As for your query and those upcoming in the series, asked and answered. Please move on, Counselor.


Given that our Jehovah's Witness has already conceded, there probably isn't any point in continuing the series. Especially if no one else wants to enter the fray on his behalf.



TheKing
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24 Feb 2011, 6:32 pm

no, Jesus was only related to David through Joseph and he has no blood relation to Joseph because Joseph isnt his real father and if he has no blood relation to Joseph he has no blood relation to David meaning he cant be descended from David


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MCalavera
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24 Feb 2011, 7:46 pm

pandabear wrote:
Philologos wrote:
pandabear wrote:
We still have a lot of Old Testament forecasts to work through, which I'm guessing will take at least a month or two.


I don't THINK you got ruveyn's question. But a useful thing to know. I will go suck my thumb in the corner until it is done. As for your query and those upcoming in the series, asked and answered. Please move on, Counselor.


Given that our Jehovah's Witness has already conceded, there probably isn't any point in continuing the series. Especially if no one else wants to enter the fray on his behalf.


Well, most of the Christians here are quite timid with their arguments.



pandabear
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24 Feb 2011, 10:34 pm

Especially when they really don't have anything to say.



Philologos
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24 Feb 2011, 10:44 pm

Or no one to talk to.



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25 Feb 2011, 12:06 am

"We aren't the droids you're looking for."


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pandabear
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25 Feb 2011, 10:55 am

So, you're admitting defeat and accepting that your system of beliefs is false, I take it?

Back in the old days, all that mattered was paternal ancestry. Hence the Bible only lists male lineages for characters. If Mary was descended from David, it made no difference. Jesus' stepfather, Joseph, seems to have been a direct descendant of David. However, Jesus is the Son of God, and not the son of Joseph. Furthermore, Jesus never ruled over any Gentiles.

Hence, if the Jewish messiah was to be a descendent of David, then Jesus certainly did not fill the bill.



pandabear
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27 Feb 2011, 3:22 pm

If you look at 1 Chronicles 22

Quote:
He sent for his son Solomon and commanded him to build a temple for the Lord, the God of Israel. David said to him, "Son, I wanted to build a temple to honor the Lord my God. But the Lord told me that I had killed too many people and fought too many wars. And so, because of all the bloodshed I have caused, he would not let me build a temple for him.9 He did, however, make me a promise. He said, 'You will have a son who will rule in peace, because I will give him peace from all his enemies. His name will be Solomon, because during his reign I will give Israel peace and security. He will build a temple for me. He will be my son, and I will be his father. His dynasty will rule Israel forever.'"


It appears that the Jewish messiah should be a descendent of Solomon. Luke says that Jesus was not a descendent of Solomon, but rather one of David's other sons, specifically Nathan.



Philologos
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27 Feb 2011, 4:03 pm

Okay.

I will say it.

I hear tapping on the roof at 4:15 PM.

I look out the window - it seems to be raining. My wife yells I should help get the clothes off the line. I step out, big drops plash on my specs.

I deduce it is raining.

We bring the clothes in and sit down. Outside puddles are forming, drops lash the window panes.

I pick up the paper. The weather forecast - sunny with light breezes all day. I frown. Some meteorologist. I turn on the radio. A cheery voice tells me it is a beautiful partly cloudy day. I turn it off.

Now, my dear Panda, which should I do:

Say that it is raining and that the prophecies are "all wet"?

Or say the forecasts prove that it can NOT be raining?

If you need forecasts to tell if it is raining, you do not know what rain is.

If you need prophecies to decide who Jesus is, you don't know him.



pandabear
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27 Feb 2011, 7:17 pm

This would suggest that Matthew and Luke did not know Jesus, as their interpretation of alleged prophesies was wrong.