Physical and verbal agression

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I havn't been on the boards in a very long time i'm thinking back to when my son was in kindergarden and I had to prepare a battle with the school to get him the services he needed. Once successful life just sorta went on.
I now really need input, advice, perspective whatever you all have to offer.

My son is now 10 years old he has been physically agressive since he was 2 and his sister was born. It used to be that he would hit first talk later but he has come a very long way and in a lot of life he now tries to verbalize first. when he's angry most of the time his verbilization includes " i want to kill you" or "i want to break that" ...He has frequent rants over various things .. doesn't want to turn the computer off yet, doesnt' want to read or do his homework, runs into a chair it's the chairs fault and he wants to break it, sister accidentally runs into him he will beat her down but most of these situations I have been able to manage with simple warnings, time outs and loss of different priveleges also with reminding him that if it was him for instance he wouldn't want his sister to hurt him because he accidentally ran into him.

Over the course of the last 10 years i'd say he's had major meltdowns where he completely lost control probably a dozen times.. you know the situations where you are afraid for the people around him. This type of situation happened last nite at a store when he was told that he could have a toy but it had to be less than a certain amt. his sister picked out hers, he found one he fell in love with but it was double what the limit was.. i suggested maybe he hide it and have his dad bring him the next day since he'd be going to his dads but that he needed to pick somthing else for today. He started really a sorta tantrum you see from any child tears and i really love it and it's such a good deal and all the argument he thought might get him what he wanted but in the end I would not cave. His worker was with us and I told her he couldn't have it and went about shopping with my daughter. She gave him a warning and time out but this did not make a difference. They found me.

This is when he situated himself in front of the cart and informed me that he would not be leaving without it and his behavior escalated. It was clear that i would not be able to get him under control or that he would see reason I simply informed him that i would be checking out and that he could stop his behavior now find a toy in the range or get nothing at all.
He escalated further to where i knew i needed to take him out of the store. His sister shouldn't suffer and not get her toy because of his behavior so I gave my card to his worker, asked her to check out and i attempted to bring him outside.

This is where he began puching me , kicking me and biting me all the while screaming and swearing. I did not give up and i got him out to the car not before sustaining numerous bite marks that are still visible today and a few goose eggs on my face from punches he was able to land. The end of the attack happened only when i told him if he didn't stop i would call the police that what he did was called assault. I took my phone out opened it and he calmly got into the car and waited.


Now i should explain that I do not give in but i am fair. He has more in the way of toys, games ect. than most kids his age have, he gets to go on trips to the indoor waterpark, we go swimming, biking ect. and we are very close and connected so i know he does not start out with the intent to hurt me or his sister who he is very close to who protects him when he's afraid and is his friend when nobody else is. He is not spanked i dont believe teaching someone not to be agressive should be done by being agressive. but at this point he's not getting any smaller only bigger and stronger and at some point he is seriously going to hurt me or his sister or who knows.. so i need some insite i guess.

I need to get some kind of idea what he's feeling when this kind of situation happens and how i might get through to him before he blows.. also constructive idea's in maybe what's worked for others .. parents of aspies or aspies themselves. I wish i could get him every little thing he wants it just isn't practical there are still bills to pay and I am a single mother who cannot work because of this agression.

There is a company that works with him daily on speech, OT and behavior .. their current plan includes simple time outs which were very affective when he was littler but that seem to have very little effect now and altho he may stop what he's doing for now the situations always repeat themself. It's not ok for any child to beat on their mother or for them to attack their little sister or for them to scream cuss words like a sailor and i am reaching a point after 10 years of this that I honestly do not know what to do but somthign has to give. I feel like i'm at the point where I love this child more than anything but I love his sister just as much and when do you decide that the safty of one child outweights the happiness of the other. Or when you do decide that no matter how much love you have for them you have done all you can and you are physically and mentally done??

So this is a plea .. i really need whatever words of encouragment, idea's strategies or insites you might have because I do not want to be forced to give up. when he is not having these meltdowns either large or small he is such a wonderful child filled with so much animation and interest and such a joy. He's even started to show empathy in the years since his father and I divorced.. somthing i didn't think he'd ever learn. I know he doesn't intend to do harm but harm is done.

Hope i didn't ramble , hope there's enough info there

That sounds to me like one of those confusing meltdowns when for some reason, he understood that he was going to get a toy he wanted, just like his sister had got the toy that she wanted. This wasnt possible because of the cost difference. That may be irrelevant to him??You know him better!

Is it possible to plan the toy reward with a clearer limited budget? Teach him the cost, the rule being that this is all that you can spend? Would that be more concrete for him to accept?

You sound like you are doing a grand job,staying cool and sticking it out but his meltdown is traumatising for him and all of you, spose we should try and avoid them but they are impossible to always avoid. Hope you can discuss with him ways that he can bring his stress down.Is there something that calms him, a retreat he can make? Deep breaths? Cna you teach him a stratergy that when things go wrong he can use this stratergie and you can reasure him that he is not being punished and as soon as he is calm enough you can talk and sort it out? My 14 year old as a younger child thought that when we denied her something, it was because she was naughty! So the word no always meant that we were punishing her to her, which of course was not true, we were simply saying no. We didnt realise that she was misunderstanding us at the time.

I cant get my 14 year old to understand the difference in what I expect from her in comparrison to her 25 year old sister! Its taken a lot of work to get her there and help her to understand the difference but I didnt realise her austisitic traits till very recently. Shame on me!

I am struggling myself at the moment but I hope this helps as you have such a good relationship with him and are also lucky to have had early intevention. Since learning of the aspergers, I have avoided taking any liberties for meltdowns, even though its costly and my home is getting slowly smashed to pieces. I only take away liberties when she is deliberatly abusive or does not come home on time.

Hope this helps a little

"This wasnt possible because of the cost difference. That may be irrelevant to him??You know him better!"

Yes he doesn't care much about cost as his dad is weathly and buys him whatever he wants reguarless of behavior but he did know in this situation the limit. I think what set him off was that he happened to find just the 'right' truck and he gets so attached to vehicles and things and sometimes it's as if it's part of his soul and your ripping it out if you dont let him have it.

In this case i sorta know what set him off he just really wanted that truck and your right I think maybe the key is avoiding the meltdown from the beginning but how do you do that exactely?? I mean we all have to go shopping at some point. Earlier in the nite i'd taken them to the library and they played in the sailboat there and played with the legos and so really the store was a reward for such great behavior at the library. I see what you mean about the clearer budget and altho i did make it clear what the limit was i didn't do it untill we were in the store maybe that was the faulty wire in this trip?

it's just been happening so much lately these meltdowns and there doesn't seem to be any clear reason or stressful event that has taken place to trigger it all.

I know what you mean about the house smashed to bits lol I dont even bother buying anything nice anymore what's the point. few months ago he smashed the last of the dining room chairs it was luck that a friend of mine had extra's. I just started with the loss of priveleges like his computer in the last few months but you know i'm really unclear as to what is fair with it. if he hurt anyone i took it away for a day that sorta thing but either it's not making an impact maybe the loss of connect between why he lost it and loosing it .. i honestly dont know. I was so angry last nite tho and I simply told him when he came back from his dads in two days the computer would be gone.

now i can't take it away indefinately it doesn't seem really fair but i have to come up with somthing that will stick tho so he understands he cannot keep hitting me. His dad was verbally abusive that's why he's no longer living here I just really hate the idea that to have a home without abuse i would have to send my son away too

the actual shopping trip really isn't the main question i can see my errors there i guess meltdowns in general you know.. How do you AVOID them? without being a push over you know or .. how can you see the escalation happening so you know somthing is going to blow before it does?

I will preface this to say my son has only the occassional meltdown now and even when he has when we say go to your room to cool off, he will stomp, yell and grumble the whole way and slam his door, but he does do it. He wasn't one to break things. While his real meltdowns are infrequent ( a few times year), he did use to kick the walls a bit and stomp the floor in his room. However, he hasn't done that in probably a year. Now, he just runs his mouth more when he is having a full meltdown. I think we have learned how to see his rumbling behaviours and be proactive in heading off a true meltdown. Plus, last summer, once we had a diagnosis and my son knew too, we were really able to have frank talks about what he was experiencing and how he felt. Please don't misunderstand, it isn't like my son was great at explaining feelings to me right away and sometimes I would walk away confused and think I had gotten nowhere. However, the funny thing is my these conversatins opened the door to my son blindsiding me at other times with amazing revelations. He sees an endocrinologist every 3 months and an opthamologist every 4 months, so I have to take him out of school to go to these visits. It is amazing the things that kid starts telling me when we are all alone in the car going to and from these visits. It is like all distractions are gone, no siblings are around and he has had time for some of our conversations to sit in his mind. My son feeling listened to has been big for him. He tells me much more than he once did. I am sure some of that is maturity, but slowing down and working on it together has helped to.

My son does run his mouth when he is having a bad day. I get what you say about not knowing what to do in terms of discipline. I think it will depend. Sometimes, all we do is send our son to his room (full of books and favorie things) if we really just want to remove him from his siblings or whatever because he is irritable and being difficult to get along with. He thinks of it as a punishment, but our goal is really a forced cool down. Since he sees it has a punishment in a way, he always wants to know for how long. I use a timer. Right now we really like the timer. The timer keeps him on task better too. If he goes up easily, its for less time than if he runs his mouth and slams his door. Sometimes he flies down the stairs the moment the timer goes off. Often, I will call up to him and he is so involved, he doesn't care that the timer went off.

Then there are days when it feels like he would be better off spending the whole day alone in his room because he is unhappy, snappy and irritable at everyone and all our warnings fall on deaf ears. Those days I usually give him extra chores or make him exercise, some of things we have found that sometimes help him. Physical exertion helps him sometimes. He likes to run with me and has done a couple of 5Ks with me. I hope that perhaps when he is older he can use running as a tool to help him. If he has really made poor choices, we will wait until he is calm and talk to him and hand out punishment. We like to take away video games or TV right now.

We have started the idea of a touchstone. He chose something he felt would help calm him (He chose a plastic shark tooth necklace that he feels is lucky right now because right after he got it, he went on super at school the next day.) We haven't been good at remembering to take it in his pocket to school, but the goal is for him to keep it out of sight so the teacher won't take it and he can fiddle with it and rub it to help calm himself. I think it will help him if he will keep it in his pocket, but if not, it is an idea that might be put aside.

What I do is read lots of books. Some things hit me as perhaps working with my son. I talk to him about it. Sometimes I have to talk him into at least trying. His difficulty is in wanting a technique to work within 5 seconds. If it doesn't, he says it doesn't work. We had parent workshop through the school district a few weeks ago. I have never gone as they seem more geared to younger kids. I spoke to one of the autism specialists after the class. She suggested using the timer when he is in a good mood to get him to practice a technique longer and extending it over time, so that he will feel how long it would take him to calm himself down and realize that it isn't a 5 second fix. I thought that might be worth a try with my son.

My son knows all the steps and techniques to controlling his anger. Stop, Keep hands to yourself, take deep breaths, count to 10, walk away, ask an adult for help. We made laminated cards last year to help him. He has also gone over it in social skills class a lot. He could make a 100% on a test about it, but implementation is more difficult. He keeps his hands to himself, but the rest he is falling short on. I had planned on role playing a lot to try to make him become comfortable using them more. However, we ended up doing some vision therapy with him and it has homework every night on top of his schoolwork, so we haven't been able to fit it in like I had hoped. Once his vision therapy is done, I plan on having him practice those techniques more.

I said a lot. I guess my main point is to try to avoid meltdown situations, start talking to him, listen and get his input. Then practice some techniques you think he can use to help himself calm down without harming anyone or any property.

[I said a lot. I guess my main point is to try to avoid meltdown situations, start talking to him, listen and get his input. Then practice some techniques you think he can use to help himself calm down without harming anyone or any property.]


I'm so glad these things are working for you and that your seeing great progress being made

I do talk to william all the time about how he's feeling most of the time he really can't give me much input here sometimes he surprises himself. he went through a program called "how does my engine run" somthing like that anyway the idea was to start to identify when he was feeling stressed or when he was feeling great so that he could realize before he blew that it was coming. then of course starting to learn to calm himself down. If you ask him directly how's your enging running he can usually tell you it's just right or it's kinda high I think more like i'm really hyper right now lol..
The last meeting with the OT we talked a little bit about all this and he'd said helping him to decrease all this will really depend on if he likes running high or if it's stressful for him so i asked william he said he likes to be feeling out of control and hyper that he doesn't like to hurt people or make bad choices but that he doesn't have a choice.

There are things i've found over the years that helps calm him like puzzles, computer ect. He also has been doing the deep breaths (we count to 3) since he was very very young... he will not however do any of these things on his own and will not tell me when he's reved high so it's all sortof a guessing game.
you know you start to see a spiral happening like when he's playing the computer game and he can't figure out how to beat the level and it's stressing him out and he's blaming the computer and saying he wants to smash it well that one is obvious he's getting stressed time to walk away but he does not want to walk away lol instead he will get to the point of tears and start banging the mouse or hitting the monitor so i have to take that choice out of his hands and make him take a break before the tears.. this means shutting it down myself which then is followed by him threatening me, telling me he wants to kill me or actually attacking me(usually nothing as bad as last nite) ..Thing is that it's not always so obvious if it was yes it would seem so simple to just stop it before it starts.

Yesturday was a fun day you know .. his worker mentioned he was mad at the snow because it wouldn't pack but otherwise he was very well behaved chattering away like he does and happy playing with his trucks , he also had a blast at the library and was happy both going and leaving there, he was also excited about the store because he'd get to buy somthing so there was no warning i had no clue he was going to fall apart over this toy and when ever hes completely lost it like this i really didn't notice anything that would say hey he's on edge tread lightly or avoid this or that . The school said he's had the best week so far this year, his dad said everything has been fine at his house and nothing has changed here so as i say its like guessing.

sunday nite he was making a fort out of the sofa cushions i reminded him it wasn't a jungle gym it was the sofa and he needed to put them back he could build a fort in his room .. when he didn't do it my daughter started putting them back in an attempt i think to keep him from getting into trouble well he started just wailing on her fist after fist he got in a lot of really good blows before i could tear him off her and put him in a time out, during the time out i finished putting the sofa back together at which point he charged at me again fists ready i was able to stop him this time and he went and finished his time out.. i use a timer as well 1 min for every year of age.. when he goes in i tell him why he's getting the time out afterward i ask him if he knows why he got into trouble usually he gives some random answer and it's unclear if he really does get it or not but i remind him why and ask him what he might be able to do different the next time. somtimes he has idea's usually he doesn't so i give him ideas for next time.

she survived the last attack as did I but i just guess i'm frustrated and tired of it all i know that sounds terrible but it's true. I'm tired of not being able to go to a store because he might hurt someone , or hearing my daughter who is 8 say she wishes her brother didn't live here because she's sick of being hit or tired of her things being smashed or frustrated because he has workers that come dailly for him and she has nothing extra done for her and yet she's the one behaving and how can you give her extra when your busy every minute of the day with him. we sit down for homework and she can finish everything very quickly and is off to watch her show and 2 hours later we're still working on a 2nd grade level book (he's in 4th) because he doesn't want to do it....i'm tired of not being able to work .. i didn't get a degree to sit home but how can you work when no daycare will take an agressive child... so altho frustrated as i say it stopped being about me or how i feel along time ago and now i just am afraid for my daughter and frankly for him too as a few years from now these same outbursts can put him into jail.

Does this agressive stuff fade, does it continue into adulthood...... he goes in and out of all this before this week happened and the slow escalation to what happened last nite there'd been no agression from him in a month and i was really feeling like we'd turned a corner and found somthing that was working then booom like a time bomb exploding back to square one.

my god i read back on my posts here and i feel like i sound like such a whinner.. like suck it up he didnt ask to be born but geeez how much really can one person do or take before they reach the last straw? well he is gone to his dads for 2 days maybe it will be enough time for me to recoupe find more strength and carry on

We did How does Your Engine Run with OT too. I went to their website and purchased some of their materials. They have some games that help kid understand the levels. It takes a lot of reinforcing for them to get the idea of what is red, green and yellow. His OT did visuals that he cut out and put on red, yellow and green construction paper to help him get the idea of what is red, yellow and green behaviour. They would talk about where his engine was running throughout the hour he was there. All red behaviour wasn't bad. For instance, running a race would require a red engine speed. Being sleepy when you woke up was a yellow. For my son, he had few yellow behaviours. She had us use the teminology in regards to us too. We were suppose to say if we were running around, super busy and stressed that we sure felt like we were running on a red engine speed. When our dog went nuts and chased her tail we would talk about her being on red too. We had a sensory diet and if he was on red and couldn't seem to calm himself, we would use some of those exercises to see if we could bring him down. While we don't have a formal sensory diet anymore as we aren't doing OT anymore, I do still bring in exercises if I feel like he needs them. It will take a lot of practice and time for him to understand what he feels like at different levels. As for his anger control, that takes a lot of practice when he isn't angry too.

It is exhausting, I know. I have 5 kids. My AS kid has a twin fraternal NT brother and I have triplets only 2 1/2 years younger. I thought I would lose my mind having to stop and break apart every situation and referee what happened. When they were younger and before we knew he had AS, I stopped getting involved and said unless someone was doing soemthing dangerous or someone was bleeding, I didn't want to know about it. I was thinking it was typical sibling bickering and everyone was trying to vye to be right and get parental attention. Everything got worse as my son couldn't ever get it right even when we told him what not to do. Finally, about two years ago, I truly stopped and stepped in each and every time he had an argument with one of his sibs. I would pull him back, coach him, prod him and get them both to act in an appropriate manner. At first, it was hard to get him to even want to listen and try. Sometimes, he would end up losing it and having to calm down in his room and I would then go up and we would then step by step go through how he should have acted when he was calm. I felt like it was all I did all day long. I felt like going crazy. It felt like I was his shadow all day long. Sometimes I did scream. It was overwhelming. However, over time, I didn't have to be called so much. It was only just the last few months, I realized I wasn't stepping in all the time. It was actually on a bad day and I was having to step in a lot and as feeling discouraged when it hit me I hadn't done it in a long time, which is why it felt odd.

I know you are frustrated. I know you are tired. I have been wanting to do more for myself since all my kids were finally in school a year and a half ago. However, I was so busy with my son last school year, I felt discouraged I would ever get any real time to do any of the writing and things I wanted to do. This year has been better. Not tons better in terms of time for myself, but better than last year. I can finally see that I might get to a point where I get a life. I have a friend with an older autistic daughter that is low functioning. She was able to start working a couple of years ago. I know she thought that would never happen too.

It probably won't be easy. It will probably take more work than you want to give since you are already so tired, but you sound like the type of eprson that can help him learn to control his emotions. Also, whine away. We all need to do it sometimes.

I also forgot to mention. Have you ever video taped him having a meltdown? I wouldn't recommend doing it with him knowing as it will probably increase his behaviour, but if you could video and then show him later, it may be eye opening for him to see how he acts. We did it once on our son. We didn't embarass him and show it to him with his sibs around or anything like that, but we showed him alone as a way to see if he could realized how he was acting.

I am AS, and I have a 9 y old AS son. So i've dealt with (numerous) meltdowns) and have had quite a few myself.
You're doing everything right. The idea of going to the store as a reward is nice and thoughtful. The problems might have arisen from different things: he might have been tired from the library, he may have sensory problems at the mall (an incredible number of adult aspies still have , not meltdowns if everything goes right, but shutdowns at the mall. People, lines of unaligned stuff on shelves,noise, flickering lights, it's all there...)
I would suggest skipping the mall as a reward.
I know it's nice and you want to please them, but if you have to take him shopping, make it fast and don't go through the toy alley.
He indeed probably fell in love with that truck, i know the feeling, but he could have let go of the idea and waited til next day if he hadn't been 1: tired, 2: in bad environment ( in a sensory way).
I say he could have, I don't know your son at all so i can only presume here, but this seems like the key to me. Sensory overload (slight),+ tired (slightly) , add frustration and demand self control= explosion.
Nothing you did was wrong btw, you were just trying to be nice
He was just not in the right state to recieve it.
The way you handled the meltdown makes sense, nothing wrong with it, i don't know if I would have tolerated a punch; I am not sure you should either, I've had meltdowns in the past, I never hit my mother because I knew i would get a slap in answer.
My son has very violent meltdowns, but if he steps towards me in a menacing way, i can still stare him out of his idea. Meltdown can look impressive but don't be fooled, he can control his body. Maybe not what he says, or his screaming , his rage has to come out somehow, but if he knows hitting is off limits, he won't do it. Even in a meltdown. Tell him you will not tolerate it anymore, and next time he wants to hit something, he can go hit a cushion in his bedroom or something, but that if he hits you, you will slap him back. I'm pretty sure you won't even have to do it once if you make that message clear, he's 10 , he'll remember
edit to add: the proof that he can control his behaviour ,at least a little, is that he stopped hitting you when you threatened to call the police. So have a good talk with him, explain to him that he is going to be a man soon, and that men cannot be violent towards women, and that you are going to start teaching him that, and that this was the last time he will ever hit you. Or else

twinplets omg you have your hands full i always said only two because i only have two hands i made a great babysitter lots of patience to go around but as a mother two is plenty for me haha

with the engine he does understand the different states he just does not let us know hey i'm red or i'm high right now and in fact recently informed his worker that he is not an engine and thought it was stupid so his OT is coming up with somthing else as we speak.. it's not the concept of it he understands it it's just putting it in action he'll answer if you ask but doesn't volunteer how he feels.

no i've never taped him altho it would be interesting to see how he thinks he is acting verses what's actually happening. i do know he feels badly afterward and says he is sorry and tells me he didnt want to make me cry that sort of thing. far as his sister i think altho he loves her he sorta see's her as a very big toy still.... hard to say on that one.

ediself- your probably right the long day plus the noise we have no malls here what i do is take them to goodwill , there is usually barely any people there and altho lot of stuff the go straight to the toys. I was trying to find a few books for his sister she's become a lover of reading but while i looked for the books they were picking out their toy. I do see your point.

I think your right that he knows. There have been a few times at home when he's come at me yelling i'm going to kill you with his fists flared and i've gotten into his face and said 'think you can take me.. go ahead see what you can do" or "make my day" and he's stopped i think simply because it was unusual for me to even raise my voice i'm a mello person have never liked conflict i think this is why all this is so hard. I fall short on even sounding stern hahaha

I have talked to him many times about how not long from now he will be old enough that if he hits someone he could go to jail it's a concept he does understand because his father is a prison guard as well as my mother. it just happens so fast. I wish i could tell him i'd hit him back i just am not sure i have it in me to hit him.. he's a child and two wrongs dont make a right. I'm afraid it would turn out to be an idle threat do you think it would still be effective even if i never did it?? I did slap his face at the store because he was biting through my hand it was the only way to make him let go.

when he was younger and his dad and I were together we did try spankings they just weren't a good route all it did was fuel his anger and then at some point it became clear to me that teaching him not to be violent with violence doesn't make any sense. I have asked him if he'd like to live with his dad (his dad is verbally agressive) i think a lot of the behavior may actuall be him emulating his dad .. you know learning what you see from your parent. Anyway he has said no that he does not want to live there he's not happy there and his dad looses his temper and says mean things. I've explained to him that if he continues to hit me he will not be living here that I dont deserve to be abused not by his dad or by him that i love him but i'm not a punching bag. At the time we talk he seems to get it ... later the lesson seems gone.

I agree he could have let the truck go that's why i suggested he hide it someplace so he could bring his dad back and get it. Thank you for your suggestions and for your kind words:)

Of course you wouldn't slap him. I have never slapped my son in the face yet, and he's 9. My mother slapped me once in my life, i was 18. (she said "you're not too old to get one!!" and slapped me, and i was left thinking omg...that's my first slap. All this time, I was just scared of the word "slap" and never knew what it felt like, and it doesn't even hurt.....) So it is MORE effective if you never do it, because to be honest, the fear of it is higher than the pain.
When you say that you fail at the stern tone, I remember learning it from a male friend of mine. He was talking to his son in a voice he never uses with me, and I asked him "how do you do that voice.....?"
because it's pretty effective He said that he just spoke in a lower pitch than usual. If you listen to people doing it you'll be able to emulate it, your voice needs to reflect control and power.Grave tone, not too fast, speak from the belly instead of the throat, and push it out as if you were speaking to a crowd. It's a whole different voice and to some people, it doesn't come naturally. Add the fact that your son might be totally unaware of the differences in tones anyway....you can try, but it might not change anything!
I know what you mean about the spanking, I stopped doing that maybe 6 months after starting it , as my whole family was telling me that i was too soft, but no way would that work with him. He'd start running around the house in fits of laughter, (he was 2 and a half) the more I spanked and the more he laughed, and i thought, god, if i go on like this I will go insane, there is no making him understand that this is supposed to be a punishment, so I will start trying to hurt him so he gets it.....so I stopped spanking altogether.
I don't think physical punishment works at ALL with AS kids.But threatening them of doing it MAY work, if they don't know what it feels like and think it must hurt like hell. Which it doesn't. Actually slapping the kid would take your power away, as he would realise it's not so bad
Edit: oh, re-reading you reply: i had missed the fact that you had already slapped him...maybe tell him that he will get "a real one" next time, implying that this was a "fake little one"? thinking about it, my father did slap the back of my head once, I was 6 and was having a meltdown about fishing a handkerchief back from the bottom of a suitcase he was still busy packing. I remember not linking the slap to what i was doing, and just continuing looking for it. I even smiled at my father, thinking he might have been only kidding. Just really, doesn't work....And my son did use to bite me, I remember putting my finger behind his teeth to open his jaw (the advantage of my horseback riding years ) but he finally stopped after I bit him back one day (I had a bruise from his bite, he was doing that "biting so hard you're shaking" thing). He was 3, and looked at me like i had turned into some evil witch, and said "it 's ouch!! !! !" (he didn't speak normally ) and i said "yes. very. so don't do it to me, i don't like it."
I know my methods are very animal and you're more sophisticated than that, I just react with my gut instinct about these things. I'm not a violent person at all. But I just don't take physical assault from anyone.

second edit (this post is turning into a book....) : my son does go into "i'm going to kill you" rages sometimes. I can do the same as you do, but sometimes I will just make him laugh or drive him insane by telling him " nahhh you won't, you love me too much, come give mummy a big hug, come my honey bunny darling of love you love your mummy come give me a hug!! !" and i chase him around the house threatening to hug him, after a while he just starts laughing. Deflecting could also be a way to stop meltdowns

ediself- omg thats funny i may try that with the killing me thing just for the laughs. I do know i dont take offense to it the school has real issues with it but i try very hard to remind them he's doing exactely what they asked him to do just isn't choosing the right words..

There was a time when he wouldn't even attempt to verbalize how he felt just start attacking and over the last I guess 4 years he's gone from hitting first to verbilizing but it's never the words they would like i tried to remind them that he's only 10 and altho most 10 year olds may be able to grasp what it means to kill or what death might be that he really isn't capable of it he doesn't even watch tv except for maybe sponge bob or train documentaries so the likelyhood that he would act on it is rediculous. I guess tho in the wake of things like colonbine schools have to adopt a zero tolerance policy reguardless of a sped placing i'm sure to protect themselves legally later if one should act on it. He gets suspended often because he's learned what they wanted just needs better words to use we continue to work on that one.

what i do at home usually is just to remind him that killing would mean i'm gone forever and i ask him do you want me gone forever i know your mad but if i'm gone it means you live somewhere else lol he agrees he's just mad so i tell them then say that i'm really mad right now, i'm discusted, i'm livid whatever word you want to use that means angry that it's ok to be angry it's what makes us human and we all get angry. very funny i remember when he was in headstart he had told some kids one day after they knocked his blocks down that he was going to run them over with his dads lawn mower that one didn't go over so well either.

I have tried the tone thing i think your right tho that they just dont hear it my daughter seems to be oblivious to it too it's only if i loose my cool and yell they'll actually hear me i just dont like to loose control not cause i'm any more sofistitacted just cause it's not loud enough. I think too having been married to their dad for 12 years and getting the verbal assault i dont want to cross a line where i become like him. I dont even think he knows when he's doing it.. i did ask the kids one day if they wanted me to be a mom like the two down the street if they wanted me to scream at them all the time that i'm sure i could that but is it somthing they wanted .. nope they dont The idea of letting him know if he hurts me i'll hurt him back tho is a good one just hope the threat of it would be enough. I dont think i'd have a problem telling him what self defense is and explaining if he assualts me i will defend myself. I'm thinking actually of putting my daughter into karate that maybe at least then she would be able to defend herself i really fear for her they love each other so much but when the rage happens she's powerless to stop it and i dont want her hurt.

Yes exactly the same situation with us and the spankings it only lasted a few months and was really just pointless. with my daughter she'll actually ask to be spanked instead of having to listen to a lecture or sit in time out she feels it's faster and she can get back to playing lol so nope she gets the time outs so i know she hates it.

Also i wanted to let everyone know i'm feeling much better today. I've been crying since it happened but i'm feeling recharged and hopefully by thursday i'll be ready to jump back in and resume. Also just as a positive note both of my kids are fantastic human beings with so much in the way of great qualities and they bring me so much joy in so many ways. I sit here and can recall just so many fantastic memories we've had over these last 10 years and altho there have been rages and stubborness and bad days there have been good as well so much good. I think when we as parents are in the middle of the storm it's just so hard to see those good memories Thank you guys

Hello there. I have been meaning to write a response here, but this sort of thing takes time; so sorry for the delay in responding.

For starters, my compliments on retaining your composure when dealing with somebody who is acting out of control. I also think you are doing a fine job with things like explaining to him what is inappropriate, and why. And the fact that he is 'well behaved' and apologetic when he is not in meltdown mode shows that he understands what is going on and really is trying. But the problem here seems to be a combination of 3 issues. For starters, your son is not taking steps to avert overload while he is overloading and thus goes past 'angry' and into 'ATTACK!' mode. Secondly, you may want to adjust how you handle the disciplining of your child to reflect his age. Your current methods work well for a 6 year old, not so much for a 10 year old. And lastly, your approach to handling your child when he is approaching 'ATTACK!' could use some adjusting. From what you are saying, it seems like your doing a pretty good job, and I must commend you on that, but there is some room for improvement.

To begin, lets talk about issue #1 (your son failing to calm down).
I don't know if you have gotten the opportunity to read my book (available for download at the link below my response) but I do go into a good bit of detail about recognizing, and handling the overload of emotions that preempt a meltdown. It is somewhat similar to the 'how is my engine running' concept, and as such some of it may already be familiar to you, but you might benefit from reading a more detailed description. Anyways, the short version of the story is that when your child says, "he doesn't like to hurt people or make bad choices but that he doesn't have a choice," he isn't lying.

You see, a meltdown can be thought of as a scale from 1 to whatever (lets say 1 to 6). 1 on the scale is when your child is in a happy, nice, calm, relaxed mood. When he is at 1, he is in full control of himself, and can easily make the decisions that he wants to. On the other end is 6, i.e. full blown meltdown. At this point, the child is effectively unconscious. He may indeed be awake, but his frontal lobe (the part which controls decision making and reasoning) is not operational. The closest approximation would be to say that the child is sleep walking. The lights may be on, but nobody is at the controls. I speak from experience when I tell you that this is NOT fun. The worst part of the experience is that you are generally aware of what is going on during the meltdown, but you can't do anything to stop it. No matter how much you want the meltdown to end, there is no off switch. It isn't a matter of will power, or making the right decisions, at that point, you are out of the decision making loop.

I realize that this may seem contrary to what you have observed. After all, you threatened to call the police, and he stopped attacking you, which would indicate that he does indeed have some measure of control. To explain this, you have to understand that there is a difference between making a rational decision (which he can control) vs. making an instinctual, emotional decision (which he cannot control). For example, have you ever heard of the term 'paralyzing fear'. This is a phenomenon where a person becomes so afraid that they cannot move. And this is definitely an emotional response. A person doesn't choose to be paralyzed with fear, nor did they consider the consequences of their actions and decide to stand still being frightened. Their emotions and instincts simply decided that action for them without any consent or control by their conscious mind. This is basically what is happening in a meltdown.

When in meltdown mode, your emotions and instincts are making the decisions, not you. So what this means is that if you feel angry, you are going to attack, irregardless of whether you want to or not. If you feel afraid, you are going to either run away, or completely shutdown, irregardless of whether you want to or not. What happened in your situation is that your child was very upset and angry. And when you threatened to call the police, his fear of arrest outweighed his anger, and as such he reacted out of fear. Again, he didn't consciously choose to get in the car and wait. Nor did he thoughtfully and carefully decide that it was the best course of action. He was just operating purely on (uncontrollable) emotion and instinct, and the threat happened to make the fear more powerful then the anger. So, once again, he didn't stop due to conscious control, or conscious choice, but instead due to a change in emotions (which he cannot control). So, when he said that he didn't have a choice, he wasn't lying. He really wasn't involved in the decision making process at that point.

The important thing to understand is that these meltdowns are not an on-off process. You don't go from 1 to 6 in .2 seconds. Instead, there is a range all the way from 1 to 6. And this is the key to understanding, and preventing the meltdowns. You see, your child will experience certain signs (both a change in mental abilities, thought process, and physical characteristics) as he is getting closer to a meltdown. Furthermore, if your child takes the time to stop and evaluate his emotions and physical state, then he can tell when he is getting more emotional, and closer to a meltdown. As such, the best way to deal with a meltdown isn't to wait until mid meltdown and then try to stop it, but to teach him to better understand and recognize his own emotional state so that he can avoid the meltdown before they start. To put it in terms your familiar with, he needs to keep his engine running smoothly as opposed to keeping it in the red zone.

I hope this makes sense to you, because it is not very easy of a concept to explain. If you want a better explanation, I really suggest reading the book. It does a much better job at explaining this.

But you probably already understand that, your question is more of 'how'? And to answer that, I think your child really needs to better learn to recognize, understand, and use his emotions. Based on what you are saying, I understand that you try to take the time and explain to him things like 'when you are angry, do XYZ instead of hitting your sister'. But have you ever explained to him what anger is? Does he know what anger feels like, does he know what are the causes of anger, does he know the difference between anger and anxiety, etc. This may all seem simple to you, but your child probably has difficulty understanding what the emotions that he is facing are. He does indeed get angry, but he doesn't recognize it as anger. He just knows that he wants to hit his sister, but he doesn't know that feeling is anger, nor does he know why he feels that way. So telling him things like 'when you are angry, do XYZ instead of hitting your sister', doesn't help him much as he doesn't know how to identify or understand anger.

To that end, I think your son would really benefit from spending time to learn about emotions. Primarily, what are they, what are the signs, what causes them, how do you recognize them, why do they happen, and so forth. You seem to be covering the aspect of 'using' his emotions properly (i.e. giving him ways to deal with his emotions), but using his emotions properly won't do him any good if he doesn't first recognize and understand them. So, I would focus more on there.

Secondly, I wish to address your discipline technique. Before I get too far into this, I should first define some terms. When dealing with your child, there is two primary methods. Working WITH your child, or working AT him. This is otherwise known as working cooperatively with the child, vs. working against your child.

Working with your child involves things like sitting down with them, and helping them to work through their problems. What causes the problem, how can you avoid it in the future, what alternatives are available, how do you handle this problem, etc. The basic idea behind this is to get your child to act the way you want them to by changing how they think. If they understand the situation, then they will be more likely to make the appropriate choice, not because you said so, but because they understand the reasoning behind the decision. They will be the ones making the decisions in their lives, you are just there to provide them with the information and guidance that helps them to understand the decision that they are making.

Conversely, working at your child is where you are trying to force your child into acting a certain way via threats, coercion, or rewards. Basically, the idea here is to say "If you do X, I will do Y. If you do A, I will do B." And by providing incentives for the actions you want, and de-incentives for the actions you don't want, you attempt to mold the child's choices. Common tactics here include time outs, reward charts, and so forth. The basic idea here is that you make the decisions for your child, and then try to manipulate them into acting as you choose.

Most parents are familiar with the working 'at' approach as it is fairly simple and strait forward. However, the working 'at' approach has several major flaws. For starters, if your child only acts a certain way because he is seeking rewards or fearing reprisal, then what do you think will happen if those consequences are no longer applicable? Your child is going to grow up and gain more independence as he ages. And the more independence he has, the less effective parental pressure will be. Also, this only serves to motivate the child to put on the external appearances of acting appropriately. It doesn't motivate them to change, it just motivates them to hide what they don't want reprisal for. And perhaps most importantly, the negative reinforcements don't help in creating an open and trusting environment between parent and child. Furthermore, working at the child doesn't really help them to understand the reasons behind the rules, and as such, they are unlikely to learn to 'generalize' the rule.

By comparison, working 'with' the child does teach them to understand the reasoning behind the rule, thus allowing them to act properly for their own reasons. It also tends to avoid the power struggle entirely because when you are working 'with' the child as opposed to 'at' the child you aren't trying to force them to act as you wish via coercion, you are trying to get them to act a certain way by appealing to their rational side. So, obviously, the working 'with' strategy seems to be the better choice.

However, I am not blind to the fact that working 'with' the child is not always an option. For example, you can generally explain to a 10 year old child how their actions affect others, and why they should consider alternative choices; but success is unlikely when trying to do the same thing with a 3 year old. Simply put, young children do not yet have the mental capacity to consider how their actions and choices affect things. They aren't really able to put themselves into somebody else's position, nor are they able to see how their actions affect the future. As such, trying to sit down and reason with a 3 year old isn't going to do much to change their behavior.

Also, many of the drawbacks with the 'working at' approach aren't significant when dealing with a young child. When the child is still young, they are very dependent on the parents, so it is easy to influence them. Young children also do a poor job at hiding things, so catching and disciplining them for unwanted behavior (i.e. stealing) is fairly simple. And most importantly, when a child is young, they tend not to hold a grudge for very long; thus disciplining them is unlikely to sour the relationship. So, for these reasons, the more effective technique when working a young child is the 'working at' approach.

But while the 'working at' approach is effective for early childhood, it begins to lose its effectiveness as the child moves much past the age of 8ish (really depends on the child). As I already mentioned, as your child ages, the parents begin to lose control, and the 'negative discipline' really doesn't help the situation. I can't tell you how many parent-child relationships that I have seen get ruined because the parent refused to abandon the 'working at' approach and continued to treat their child like a young child well into adulthood. So all that to say, while I understand that your current parenting technique of working 'at' the child has been effective when he was younger, he is a bit too old for it to continue working well. As you said yourself, the time outs no longer seem to have the same effect as they had when he was 6 years old. And as such, you want to begin to transition away from the things like timeouts, and more towards things like having conversations, and working through the problems.

Based on what you have said, it seems that you are already talking with him about how to deal with problems, but it is more of a formality after the time out. I.E. 'do you know why you were in time out', 'here is what you can do better next time' etc. What I am proposing is a more serious, and lengthier discussion with your child where you sit down and spend a good bit of time discussing things in detail. Talk about why he feels the way the does, what leads up to the problems, how he can address the problem next time, and how he can prevent his emotions from taking over. Have a discussion with him and give him some options to consider when he is feeling stressed out and approaching meltdown mode. Work with him to find solutions to the problems before he gets to wound up and over-reacts. Ask him why he over-reacted at the store, and see if you can break it down to the cause. Address how the causes can be either avoided, controlled, or handled better. And put plans in place to deal with problems before they cause major issues, so you don't wind up with another department store fiasco like you had last week.

One of the important points that I want to make here is that when addressing the problems, you need to focus on more then just the meltdown itself. In most situations, the meltdown is usually just what happens when the child finally climbs all the way up the scale from 5 to 6 (thus losing control of his emotions and resulting in the problems). But the child has most likely been building up to that meltdown for a while. And if you recognize the warning signs, you can generally see a meltdown coming hours in advance. So when addressing problems like why your son acted the way he did at the store, don't just focus on what to do about the specific truck incident. The truck was likely the trigger for a meltdown that had been building for a while (possibly even days). And blaming the spark is ignoring the cause of the buildup. That would be like blaming a static discharge for the Hindenburg disaster, while ignoring the fact that it was a floating inferno waiting to happen long before the spark occurred.

Again, I have to recommend reading the book. I am trying to summarize it here as best as I can, but I think I do a better job explaining things in there as I have had more time to work on it.

And lastly, I wish to address your meltdown handling procedure.

When dealing with meltdowns, you have to understand that there is a 'window' where the meltdown isn't quite in full swing, but definitely building; and you have a chance to pull back before it is too late. This is basically where your child is climbing up (going from 3, to 4, to 5, and approaching 6). At this point, you want to intervene, and help the child to regain composure before the meltdown occurs. If you know what to look for, you can easily see this coming, and prevent it from getting out of hand. For example, when your child has parked himself in front of your cart, and is demanding that you buy him the toy or else, this is a sign that your child is becoming increasingly emotional and irrational, and is approaching the 'meltdown mode'. At this point, you want to take steps necessary to reduce the emotional stress that your child is under. For example, lets review a good method vs. an ineffective method:

Ineffective:
Child: I want the toy!
You: I'm sorry, but you can't have it. It costs too much.
Child: BUT I REALLY WANT IT!
You: look, you can have a toy in the price range or you can have nothing.
Child: THAT ISN'T FAIR!
You: too bad, either pick a different toy, or we are leaving with nothing.

In this case you aren't being mean to your child, nor are you unreasonably antagonizing them. But the problem is that you are taking a 'confrontational' approach to dealing with your child. Basically, it becomes a contest of you vs. him and he sees you as the enemy(metaphorically speaking). This is likely to result in an escalation like you experienced. And furthermore you aren't really addressing the cause of the behavior. The problematic behavior isn't due to the truck (despite seeming that way), it is just due to the emotions building out of control from events that happened long before you ever arrived at the store. So when your son gets like this next time, try an approach like this instead:

Child: I want the toy!
You: I'm sorry, but you can't have it. It costs too much.
Child: BUT I REALLY WANT IT!
You: I understand that you want the you, and I know it seems really important to you right now, but I think you are allowing your emotions to cloud your judgment.
Child: IM NOT EMOTIONAL! I WANT THE TRUCK!
You: Ok, then you tell me, are you feeling tense right now? Are you breathing quickly? Does your engine seem to be running well, or are you getting excited?
Child: But I want the truck...
You: I know you do, but you need to take a minute to calm down here. Take some deep breaths, and get your engine running smoothly. Then we can talk about you getting the truck.
Child: So, I can have the truck?
You: We can discuss it after you have taken a minute to calm down.

I can't script the entire conversation here, but the basic idea is to recognize when your child is getting worked up, and encourage him to calm down, unwind, and take care of his emotions before he reaches the crisis point.

This is also why I am recommending that you stop with the timeouts and other such childish behavioral modification techniques. When you put your child in timeout, what do you think that is doing for their emotional control? Do you think they are getting any calmer and regaining composure? In reality, the more you punish them, the angrier they get, and the more they lose control of their emotions. Because once again you put yourself in the adversarial position, which only serves to goad the child into becoming more emotional. So, instead of the working 'at' approach which becomes increasingly ineffective with age, I suggest you take a more productive, cooperative approach.

Now I realize that there are still times when you need to separate and remove your son. For example, when he is attacking his sister, you shouldn't go up to him and try to engage him in conversation (your daughter probably wouldn't appreciate that). In those situations you do need to physically remove him. But once you have him removed, don't punish him and consider it done. Instead have him go do something else until he is calm enough to talk about it. After the conversation, he can apologize to his sister and make it up to her by doing something nice as an apology.

Hopefully that helps, like I said before, I recommend you read the book as I discuss it all in there with better detail, and I think it is written better. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Have you read The Explosive Child? My son did a 180 when I started following those steps, and it helped him to practice his empathy at the same tim. It takes time to stop a meltdown, and you have to trust your child, but it so works.

Good luck!

Tracker, I completely understand the theory of "working with" your child that you're trying to explain, but it's not failproof. Sometimes, children even at an older age are not going to calm down just because you ask them to. In fact, past the age of 10, they might feel you're patronizing them and get even more worked up. THE TRUCK is in their mind, all they see is that you're not listening to the "truck talk" anymore and are trying to change subjects to " your feelings need to be controled" , seeing that it has nothing to do with the truck, it may drive some into a meltdown if it hadn't started yet.
It's a more respectful approach and i wish I could just apply it and be respectful of my son's identity every minute of the day, but sometimes , just sometimes, it isn't possible. It can be tried but I would just like to remind the parents here that if it doesn't work with their child, it happens. No conclusion to be drawn from it, and there are reasons why it just doesn't work in some situations. Sometimes taking control in a very undemocratic way is just the only solution, even if it's a last resort thing.
Edit: I read your post once again, and tried to put myself in the child's position, and I can tell I would respond aggressively to someone telling me how I should feel and how to stop feeling how I feel without resolving my issue (the truck!! !! ! ) It's VERY controlling under the appearance of respect.

This is somthing I have been working on for months. We have a company that works with william on a daily basis for about 4 hours a day. Their team is made up of Behavioral psycologist, OT and speech therapist. The behavioralist comes up with the plan of behavior modification based on the things seen by the lst's who come to the house , they write up their plan and this is what everyone follows with respect to discipline and therapies. I have for some time been telling them the time outs were not the answer and that altho they worked great in the beginning and made a huge difference that now other than calming him down a little bit it did very little for actually changing the behavior because it continues to come back over and over and over. Time outs do still seem effective tho for simply giving him the time to calm down. I have watched him go from 3 on your 6 scale back to 1 simply by sitting for 10 minutes. I just havn't seen any lasting effects (meaning more than 1 day).

I should explain that this company works primarily with kids on the spectrum also those with emotional or developmental problems...in each situation working in the home alongside the parents. It's very difficult to convince a behavioralist who does this for a living that his plan is wrong. But we are working on different stragtegies that include loss of privleges ect. and there is a new behavioralist at the helm now so maybe he and I can map out a better strategy (I meet with this this upcomming week)

I see what you mean about the at and with and I guess I would say I have been using both of these together but it's unclear sometimes if william understands the things we talk about. Once in a while he does seem in the conversation and adding his opinion and feelings at other times he seems lost with what's being said. I should say too that mentally he is functioning at about a 8 year old level and seems to understand at about the same level as my daughter sometimes even lower than her. I'm not sure that simple talking is going to address or help him overcome this aggression issue but it is valid I agree and should definately be part of the solution.

Also thank you for the compliment I am trying yes..



I have not yet read the book altho I did download it a couple days ago and I plan to attempt reading it. I say attempt because reading is not always easy for me to do. I find I have to read paragraphs over and over just to get what the point was and so somtimes it's daunting and stressful for me to do especially with life going on around me (kids, tv, music, phone ect) that said I do intend to read it, perhaps wednesday when the kids are gone to their dads and the house is quiet.
It's very nice on boards like this because you can split things up into small parts and then disect them.. somtimes not so easy with books:) **i would say that me reading is a bit like my son understanding me I want to, I am trying but it's very difficult:) college was not fun just for this reason alone!!

I do agree the meltdown seem to have an escalation that can happen quickly or over a course of days, what I dont seem to see is the actually affect while the ascalation is happening .. what i mean is that he doesn't seem anymore stressed or upset or angry or anything untill somthing he doesn't like takes place and he lashes out or snaps at me. When this sort of thing takes place it's easy to see he's in a bad mood but once he seems to get through the thing that made him snap at me he appears to be in a good mood again. .

Thank you for the explaination of the frontal lobe and unconscious mode it really makes a lot of sense, I supose it could be compared quite easily to the fight or flight response.


Actually no it's been my observation all along with the acception of the threat of police or a hospital I have always felt he had absolutely no control. I do feel he sometimes had control over reacting in the first place...but once he did he had no way to stop himself.

I have often discribed too over the years that what seems to happen is a switch goes off like someone lit the wick on a bomb and then he explodes. Usually with very little warning, and usually with the intensity that warrented the comparison to a bomb. In contrast what did not make sense was a reaction that strong for the situations for which they happened.


I'm not sure why this never occured to me but it does make perfect sense!! ! We've done the emotions pictures and we've done the engine stuff and we've tried so many times to help him to calm but it makes so much sense that it would be really a daunting task if he doesn't understand really what they are in the first place. I do know he knows what it means to be angry but your right maybe he isn't really drawing a parallel on how he's feeling as being that anger he just wants whatever it is to stop and then he blows.

I do not know if he knows what anger feels like, i would assume he does because he's angry a lot of the time but it would be very difficult to put that into words he would understand and not only that but everyone feels anger differently dont they? When I get angry I feel sick to my stomach like someone has punched me, start to get nauseous and things start to irritate me.. but i dont know is this the same reaction for everyone? because when I was younger this isn't how it felt. This whole sick feeling didn't happen untill i was in an abusive marriage?? Before that I think I simple started to feel sad! I can understand his instand angry feeling tho as i've felt that many times when I wake to find that all the cleaning I did the nite before has been undone. I just have the control not to blow..(most of the time i'm not perfect)

Having said that it's a great observation and somthing that perhaps the behavioralist or the OT would know how to address to start to help william identify the feelings when they start.


I'm not sure how having a time out would be a negative reinforcement.. if the child didn't know in advance this was the conciquence maybe.. but if it's concrete action-conciquence it is lost on me why it would be unfair or negative?? Of course it's possible that people do it different or some have more or less rules ect. We have 4 rules in this house, so it doesn't seem to me negative or unfair to say these are the 4 rules (that the kids made btw) if you dont follow them you sit for a minute to think about the rule and why you broke it? anyway maybe i'm lucky mine have never hidden their rule breaking is out in the open

oh but now i read the next paragraph again.. perhaps the reason mine dont hide is that i've been doing both the styles you mention?


we do this perhaps we need to do it more often


I did ask him he said he just fell in love with the truck and wanted it, he felt it was unfair not to be able to have it and he didn't want to leave it and not find it later. He also said that the fear of the police is why he was able to stop and we worked out a solution together altho it's unclear how it will work and in the meantime the things you laid out here can definately help!!

his solution .. he knows it's wrong to attack us and doen'st want to hurt us. he knows that I may need to call the police and he said please remind him when he comes at us (before damage is done but while he's lost it) that I am going to call.. he thinks that the reminder will help him stop before he hurts us.


this is how i handled it. it wasn't just my way or the highway , we're done talking i win..... it was an ongoing conversation that lasted well past half hour before the melt.. I even gave him a suggestion that if he had anne help him hide the truck he could come back the next day with his dad and get it. I do think it would have been unfair to him tho to suggest that if he calm down i would reconsider because it simply would have played out the same once i told him no again??? (not sure if that makes sense)


actually i see the opposite take place. He goes from ready to knock me out to calm enough to talk?


It is helpful and I will print out portions of it to bring to my meeting with the behavioralist maybe together we can come up with somthing that works a lil better with william..

thank you