justjelliot
Snowy Owl
Joined: Jun 08, 2011
Age: 27
Posts: 146
Location: Washington, DC
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 Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:57 pm Post subject: The Invention of Lying |
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I saw this movie (with Ricky Gervais) two years before I was diagnosed. Here's a link imdb The idea of this movie is people speak their minds, are unable to lie, don't even see a reason to lie, etc. I thought it would be so convenient if life were really this way. I would get people. I would know what they wanted and when they wanted it. I wouldn't miss cues or prompts.
Anybody else see it? What were your thoughts?
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graywyvern
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 03, 2010
Age: 55
Posts: 516
Location: texas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: lying invented |
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China Mieville's new novel Embassytown is about just this--treated with considerably more profundity.
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justjelliot
Snowy Owl
Joined: Jun 08, 2011
Age: 27
Posts: 146
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: lying invented |
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| graywyvern wrote: | | China Mieville's new novel Embassytown is about just this--treated with considerably more profundity. |
This novel? Do you recommend it? I'm reading through the synopsis, and nothing seems to indicate an inability to lie.
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When you know you don't have all the answers, you begin to ask the right questions.
-Dr. Erik Selvig, Thor
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graywyvern
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 03, 2010
Age: 55
Posts: 516
Location: texas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: Embassytown |
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it's deeply embedded in the story, but basically the aliens have a language (like Lojban, BTW) which has no metaphors; everything is literal, & the aliens are not so much truthful as unable to imagine not being so. (then it changes...) highly recommended--though if you haven't read Mieville before, Perdido Street Station is his greatest & The City and the City his most accessible work.
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"I have always found that Angels have the vanity
to speak of themselves as the only wise; this they
do with a confident insolence sprouting from systematic
reasoning." --William Blake |
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LadySera
Velociraptor
Joined: Jun 02, 2011
Posts: 417
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| I saw that movie a while ago and thought that it was very interesting. |
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nonentity
Hummingbird
Joined: Jul 20, 2011
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| I'd still have a problem! It's not so much the lying and such that I don't get as it is the motivations for certain things that seem irrational to me, I guess. |
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nichiren
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Aug 06, 2011
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: The Invention of Lying |
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| justjelliot wrote: | I saw this movie (with Ricky Gervais) two years before I was diagnosed. Here's a link imdb The idea of this movie is people speak their minds, are unable to lie, don't even see a reason to lie, etc. I thought it would be so convenient if life were really this way. I would get people. I would know what they wanted and when they wanted it. I wouldn't miss cues or prompts.
Anybody else see it? What were your thoughts? |
Have never seen the movie but do like the idea had humanity began like this and continued to have the inability to lie up to the present.
I've found that some people will ignore and deny the truth even if it is presented in their faces with proof.
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Suicide is not a cowardly act, it is a courageous one. It takes a huge force of will to overcome the hardwired instinct to survive at all costs. |
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KaminariNoKage
Snowy Owl
Joined: Jun 02, 2012
Posts: 173
Location: In and Out of Reality
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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I have saw it about a month ago - and I agree. Extremely interesting concept, and would be very much a breath of fresh air if the world was like that. Funny thing is, I have attempted to talk to my family like the way the people do in the movie (not because of - they ask me what I think/say things where it becomes clear that I need to clarify misconceptions) and then get my ear chewed off for it, offend someone, and just a bunch of variations of what I think/feel is "wrong." If I try to be nice and factor in their "feelings" (which I always do because I view everything from more than one point of view), it just goes ignored. The more straightforward-honest I am, the more of an arrogant-jerk "I come off as." I have even been told I could not get into college "with this personality" (I did) or the blame gets shoved off onto someone else.
Kind of reminds me of this episode from Lilo and Stitch though where one of the experiments was a lie detector, designed to destroy society because society was built on lies and deception - if you reveal the truth, the world will start to collapse.... |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14794
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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I actually really liked that movie.
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TalksToCats
Toucan
Joined: Jun 02, 2012
Posts: 255
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Embassytown |
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| graywyvern wrote: | | it's deeply embedded in the story, but basically the aliens have a language (like Lojban, BTW) which has no metaphors; everything is literal, & the aliens are not so much truthful as unable to imagine not being so. (then it changes...) highly recommended--though if you haven't read Mieville before, Perdido Street Station is his greatest & The City and the City his most accessible work. |
I'd just like to say I really enjoyed embassytown. It gets a bit slow in places but it's very interesting and well worth persevering with.
I've also read the two other books, and completely agree with the comments, Perdito Street Station is a fantastic book, but City and the City is an easier read.
To get back to the OP question, I don't know, if everyone was completely honest I would find it much easier but don't know whether it could work out in the long run. I've not seen the film... |
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Sujay
Emu Egg
Joined: Jun 27, 2012
Age: 53
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:27 am Post subject: |
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I find it very difficult to lie, but unfortunately in today's world, it is something of a survival necessity at times. When I do lie, I have to do this 'parallel universe' thing where I imagine being in some variant of this reality, where the lie is not a lie. I find it very exhausting. Being honest is so much simpler, despite the negative consequences that it can often have.
What annoys me is that so much of our cultural morality is focused on the values of being honest and doing the right thing. Yet in reality, that's often the opposite to the way most NTs live their lives.
The last thing people seem to want to hear is a frank open response. I find myself sometimes warning people beforehand. "I can answer that question, but you may not like my answer, so perhaps you should reconsider asking me."
I really hate being asked what my opinion is then being punished when I give an honest response. If you can't handle my honesty, please don't ask me to express it. I spend a lot of time being silent around people for this reason. | Quote: | | Truth! You can't handle the Truth! |
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Nonperson
Unbeatable Pterodactyl
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Joined: Jun 13, 2012
Posts: 1046
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, that would be much easier. If people would simply say "I find you creepy because you won't look me in the eyes" or "I think you must be stupid because you didn't laugh at the joke with everyone else" or whatever it is they're thinking, maybe I'd actually learn some social skills. Those examples are my best attempts at a guess, but who knows what they'd actually say.
What I just said probably sounds sarcastic, right? It's not. I'd really much rather be told people think I'm creepy or stupid than have them simply react that way.
Not to mention all the times where I'll say something completely straightforward and literal and the people around me will take it as a passive-aggressive complaint or a demand or something. Even people who know me well do this, like my husband assuming that "Oh, if I ran one more heroic I could buy something with VP" basically meant "I demand that you get on your healer and carry my undergeared tank through Stonecore when you're half asleep or I'll hate you forever." 
I can lie, I suppose, but I would only resort to it in a really dire situation. Even when most people would say one would have to lie I look for a way to say something technically true that is sufficiently misleading. |
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Oodain
big chief wulla bamboom alakaway
Joined: Jan 31, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 5022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Nonperson wrote: |
Not to mention all the times where I'll say something completely straightforward and literal and the people around me will take it as a passive-aggressive complaint or a demand or something. Even people who know me well do this, like my husband assuming that "Oh, if I ran one more heroic I could buy something with VP" basically meant "I demand that you get on your healer and carry my undergeared tank through Stonecore when you're half asleep or I'll hate you forever."
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ugh i hate this -_-
happens so often.
as for lying, depends, the more i know the person the more likely im honest, if they cant handle honesty i probably wouldnt want to spend time with them otherwise, fortunately this goes both ways.
as for others, i think i have become somewhat desensitized when it comes to strangers or people with whom i rarely affiliate myself with.
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Stoek
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 08, 2012
Age: 83
Posts: 644
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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What annoys me most is that people ignore the benefits of true honesty.
People are so much better able to come to terms with reality.
The painful truth is often useful. |
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Ewags
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Nov 20, 2012
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Neuro-scientist Sam Harris has an article and a few lectures on lying. He convincingly argues that lying, even to the point of supposed "white lies" is counter-productive.
My personal opinion, while less articulated and based not in science but in preference, is that being completely honest would be both convenient and much less stressful. |
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