NeantHumain
Phoenix
![]()
Joined: Jun 25, 2004
Posts: 5119
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
|
 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:54 am Post subject: Occupy Wall Street vs. the Tea Party |
 |
|
| Which one (and one and only one of them has to) represents real middle-class Americans? Which one is an astroturf effort to make special interests look like what Americans really want? |
|
| Back to top |
|
JakobVirgil
Tyrant / Part-Time Mexican
Joined: Feb 16, 2011
Posts: 3689
Location: yes
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street vs. the Tea Party |
|
|
| NeantHumain wrote: | | Which one (and one and only one of them has to) represents real middle-class Americans? Which one is an astroturf effort to make special interests look like what Americans really want? |
The whois on the early teaparty websites pointed to medical insurance companies.
_________________
-Jake
Objectivism is objective in the same way Scientology is scientific
My very short novel
http://beth-aven.blogspot.com/2012/06/wolfman.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
Vexcalibur
Proud to be smug as heck
![]()
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Posts: 5379
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I was told by a mod to reword this on a way that didnt attack posters from a certain country and all I got was a crapy edit about it
If you want to have fun, take criticism to any of them, swap the mentions of tea parties and occupiers and swap the words marxist and fascist. It is fun.
edited by spongy
_________________
.
Last edited by Vexcalibur on Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:28 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
Jacoby
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 4023
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The average middle-class American doesn't care about politics. Most are more concerned with Dancing With The Stars and Glee than they are with how their tax money is or isn't being spent.
There was a level of coherency with the Tea Party(relative to the OWS protests) in that they clearly opposed the Democrat's health insurance plan and wanted to reduce the size and scope of government. OWS is against... Wall Street? Because... they make money? The corporations mmmmmaaaamannnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
I suppose when you look at it from that standpoint of who better represents the rabid, uninformed, just plain stupid masses, you can hand it to OWS. Congratulations.
As for who is an astroturf movement to make special interests look like what Americans really want? I wouldn't say either started that way but it's a lot easier to manipulate an unorganized leaderless "movements" with no coherent message or goal. It's pretty easy to see where OWS is going. The 50 or however many people that started it and got the initial attention are now vastly outnumbered by wannabes and activists with their own interests. You have your standard dreadlock wearing doobie smoking anti-capitalists, unions, Soros groups such as MoveOn.org, and many more I'm sure. The "special interests" are already taking over.
The Tea Party/OWS comparison is legitimate when you look at their ultimate fates tho, being co-opted respectively into the establishment of the Republican and Democratic parties. As sad that is, it seems inevitable that their initially anti-corporate agendas will get turned on it's head and will start supporting the machine(lip service aside) that they were supposedly against. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Master_Pedant
Rocky Anderson for President!
Joined: Mar 15, 2009
Posts: 4707
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jacoby wrote: |
There was a level of coherency with the Tea Party(relative to the OWS protests) in that they clearly opposed the Democrat's health insurance plan and wanted to reduce the size and scope of government. OWS is against... Wall Street? Because... they make money? The corporations mmmmmaaaamannnnnnnnnnnnnnnn |
The Tea Partisans started out with a rather anti-bailout message before morphing into an "Obama is a socialist, taxes are too high, the deficit will cause the end of the world, healthcare reform is evil" party. Many key Occupy WallStreet protesters (and, indeed, several central organizers like AdBusters) have made it clear that the role of corporate money in politics is a central issue.
_________________
http://www.voterocky.org/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29317
Location: New Jersey
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Master_Pedant wrote: | | Jacoby wrote: |
There was a level of coherency with the Tea Party(relative to the OWS protests) in that they clearly opposed the Democrat's health insurance plan and wanted to reduce the size and scope of government. OWS is against... Wall Street? Because... they make money? The corporations mmmmmaaaamannnnnnnnnnnnnnnn |
The Tea Partisans started out with a rather anti-bailout message before morphing into an "Obama is a socialist, taxes are too high, the deficit will cause the end of the world, healthcare reform is evil" party. Many key Occupy WallStreet protesters (and, indeed, several central organizers like AdBusters) have made it clear that the role of corporate money in politics is a central issue. |
It is the unholy alliance between some of the Corporations and Government, the reign of the Crony Capitalists that is at the heart of both protests and the government is right in the middle. The U.S. government is run by churls, morons, incompetents and utterly base people.
Unfortunately the public keeps re-electing them.
ruveyn |
|
| Back to top |
|
Master_Pedant
Rocky Anderson for President!
Joined: Mar 15, 2009
Posts: 4707
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jacoby's analysis is also relatively dishonest. The Occupy WallStreeters didn't start protesting until Sept. 17, 2011. The Tea Partisans were around for a longer period of time (and, indeed, were initially planned as an extension of the "Ron Paul Revolution" after the candidate failed to win the nomination in 2008, somewhat before the healthcare proposal was fleshed out) before the various strands of the movement converged onto opposition to healthcare reform and (with Kock influence) a generic opposition to taxation.
_________________
http://www.voterocky.org/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29317
Location: New Jersey
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Master_Pedant wrote: | | Jacoby's analysis is also relatively dishonest. The Occupy WallStreeters didn't start protesting until Sept. 17, 2011. The Tea Partisans were around for a longer period of time (and, indeed, were initially planned as an extension of the "Ron Paul Revolution" after the candidate failed to win the nomination in 2008, somewhat before the healthcare proposal was fleshed out) before the various strands of the movement converged onto opposition to healthcare reform and (with Kock influence) a generic opposition to taxation. |
The Tea Part -began- as a libertarian protest against certain government policies. It has been hijacked by the Republican Ultra Right, the religious crazies, the shi'ite Christians.
ruveyn |
|
| Back to top |
|
Embroglio
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 185
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ruveyn wrote: | | Master_Pedant wrote: | | Jacoby's analysis is also relatively dishonest. The Occupy WallStreeters didn't start protesting until Sept. 17, 2011. The Tea Partisans were around for a longer period of time (and, indeed, were initially planned as an extension of the "Ron Paul Revolution" after the candidate failed to win the nomination in 2008, somewhat before the healthcare proposal was fleshed out) before the various strands of the movement converged onto opposition to healthcare reform and (with Kock influence) a generic opposition to taxation. |
The Tea Part -began- as a libertarian protest against certain government policies. It has been hijacked by the Republican Ultra Right, the religious crazies, the shi'ite Christians.
ruveyn |
At first it was a libertarian protest against tax increases, and more importantly they were protesting against the bail outs for the banks. The early tea partiers may of very well been a part of the Wall Street protests. But since it's been hijacked by the religious nutjobs, they won't be caught dead with "those damn dope smoking hippie satanists". |
|
| Back to top |
|
Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I come from a middle class german irish family so yes I care about politics where smarter then you think  |
|
| Back to top |
|
Inuyasha
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 13, 2009
Posts: 9745
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| There have been 700+ arrests (protesters getting violent and/or breaking laws) due to Occupy Wallstreet movements while there were 0 arrests associated with the tea party, enough said. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Jacoby
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 4023
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Master_Pedant wrote: | | Jacoby's analysis is also relatively dishonest. The Occupy WallStreeters didn't start protesting until Sept. 17, 2011. The Tea Partisans were around for a longer period of time (and, indeed, were initially planned as an extension of the "Ron Paul Revolution" after the candidate failed to win the nomination in 2008, somewhat before the healthcare proposal was fleshed out) before the various strands of the movement converged onto opposition to healthcare reform and (with Kock influence) a generic opposition to taxation. |
It started as a moneybomb on the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party back in 2007 iirc but the point was that their message was more coherent which it is. The role of corporate money doesn't really mean anything, what are they protesting specifically? What is their goal? Dylan Ratigan, bless his heart, has been talking about some constitutional amendment banning political contributions to federal campaigns which is quite frankly stupid. You have fat man Michael Moore trying to get in front of it trying to say they want to bring an end to capitalism who is the very essence of capitalist excess.
Being against health insurance reform(health insurance enrichment is probably a more appropriate term), the bailouts, the stimulus, are all pretty clear cut things and anti-corporatist as anything. The original spirit of the Tea Party didn't completely die tho, there were a ton of great candidates in 2010 and some got elected such as Rand Paul, Mike Lee, Justin Amash.
Money in politics isn't the problem tho, it's the power that Washington and the Fed that is the problem. These special interests, corporations, etc. would have nothing to spend their money on if the powers they're trying to influence didn't exist. Not exactly what someone who wants an all encompassing unitary nanny state wants to hear but it is what it is.
Honestly, a good portion of the protesters seem to be protesting their student loans that they probably got ill-thought out degrees in like philosophy and art with. |
|
| Back to top |
|
blauSamstag
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 06, 2011
Posts: 1880
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jacoby wrote: | Being against health insurance reform(health insurance enrichment is probably a more appropriate term), the bailouts, the stimulus, are all pretty clear cut things and anti-corporatist as anything. The original spirit of the Tea Party didn't completely die tho, there were a ton of great candidates in 2010 and some got elected such as Rand Paul, Mike Lee, Justin Amash.
Money in politics isn't the problem tho, it's the power that Washington and the Fed that is the problem. These special interests, corporations, etc. would have nothing to spend their money on if the powers they're trying to influence didn't exist. Not exactly what someone who wants an all encompassing unitary nanny state wants to hear but it is what it is.
Honestly, a good portion of the protesters seem to be protesting their student loans that they probably got ill-thought out degrees in like philosophy and art with. |
What do you propose we that replace the major federal agencies with?
"Nothing" is not a valid answer. Central banking is necessary in the current world economy.
The way i see it, corporate interests will subvert any position they can get their grimy paws on. Even if it's a private not-for-profit.
It's late, so i don't remember the specifics, but there is (or was) a bicycle safety/advocacy group that was founded by avid cyclists to promote effective standards in the interest of cyclists. Things like limiting the use of rumble strips on roads that are not major highways, and discouraging cities from designing streets where the bicycle lane is between the road and parallel parking (because these streets kill a lot of cyclists).
Some bicycle manufacturers got involved - they promised to bring money and corporate resources to the aid of private cyclists and managed to get themselves situated into all the meaningful leadership positions in the organization.
And then commenced advocating for business as usual. |
|
| Back to top |
|
ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29317
Location: New Jersey
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| blauSamstag wrote: |
"Nothing" is not a valid answer. Central banking is necessary in the current world economy.
|
Unfortunate but true. That is the effect of replacing metal standard money with fiat money. The quantity has to be regulated centrally else inflation will run rampant.
ruveyn |
|
| Back to top |
|
number5
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 16, 2009
Posts: 1691
Location: sunny philadelphia
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Inuyasha wrote: | | There have been 700+ arrests (protesters getting violent and/or breaking laws) due to Occupy Wallstreet movements while there were 0 arrests associated with the tea party, enough said. |
| Quote: | New York City Police Foundation — New York
Beginning in 2010, JPMorgan Chase donated technology, time and resources valued at $4.6 million to the New York City Police Foundation, including 1,000 new patrol car laptops. The gift was the largest in the history of the foundation and will enable the New York City Police Department to strengthen security in the Big Apple.
New York City Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly sent CEO and Chairman Jamie Dimon a note expressing "profound gratitude" for the company's donation.
"These officers put their lives on the line every day to keep us safe," Dimon said. "We're incredibly proud to help them build this program and let them know how much we value their hard work."
|
http://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/Home/article/ny-13.htm
Wall Street is paying for enhanced security, both directly and indirectly.
Most of those arrests were from the Brooklyn Bridge incident. It's true that this is not a pedestrian bridge, but to paint this as a violent event is disingenuous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
