LittleSwallow
Raven
Joined: Aug 26, 2011
Posts: 116
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 Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:53 am Post subject: Do you feel any sympathy for bully victims who cause..... |
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..school massacres, like Columbine and Virginia for example?
In a way, I kinda do, because the type of bullying they go through is horrible, especially for that Korean boy frorm Virginia who had autism, but the way his classmates treated him in high school, like giving him money so that he can speak up, and laughing and teasing him and saying "Go back to China" because he did not know English that well (this obviously shows their lack of knowledge that not every Asian person is from China ¬_¬) and the list goes on and on (Google Virginia and columbine massacres if you don't know much about it)
I mean these people's health were deterioating to begin with, so is it any wonder they would snap and do this? Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with how they shot innocent people in the school who had no idea who they are or what they went through, but it's they way they treat the shooters like scum after their deaths and how they dont deserve any sympathy.
These people were not born to be evil, it's thanks to the crap school system and how they approach bullying, and also thanks to bad parenting of the bullies (which isnt always the case as well, I know a bully who has good parents and a good lifestyle, so how he became a jerk is beyond me) is how something like this might happen, because not every single teenager growing up is "normal"
There will be some with some mental illness or autism, and school and parents need to be taught about it more, so that they can catch the problem early on, and also to show that it is nothing to be ashamed of, because I know some parents who won't get their children assessed for any problems with school work, because they dont want to admit their child has a problem, and sur ethen they end up struggling with everything.
So yeah, I do feel some sympathy for these shooters, because I have had mild depression a few years back, (Im 18 now) and it is amazing how diffrently you think of the world when you are mentally sick, because thats the thing, you think of these things in your mind that you think are right or wrong, and you are just not able to see the reality of the situation. Even though i am better, I have to deal with the reality of not having much friends and people not really wanting to talk to me much anymore because of being the weird kid. 
So imagine being in their shoes and state of mind where they think that shooting and killing people is the ony way to get their message across about defenceless people and how they have been driven to do these things. Because in a way, they actually have.
Any this is my opinion, so feel free to give yours. |
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kojot
Blue Jay
Joined: Feb 18, 2012
Age: 28
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Do you feel any sympathy for bully victims who cause.... |
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No. I don't know them and I don't identify with them.
I believe that horrible society produces horrible people. And in few cases it's just genetics.
| LittleSwallow wrote: |
So yeah, I do feel some sympathy for these shooters, because I have had mild depression a few years back, (Im 18 now) and it is amazing how diffrently you think of the world when you are mentally sick, because thats the thing, you think of these things in your mind that you think are right or wrong, and you are just not able to see the reality of the situation.
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Reality, right, wrong does not exit. They are abstractions created by people who didn't understand their sensory input well enough to form a more sophisticated model.
You never see the reality, you always see some "reality".
| LittleSwallow wrote: |
So imagine being in their shoes and state of mind where they think that shooting and killing people is the ony way to get their message across about defenceless people and how they have been driven to do these things. Because in a way, they actually have.
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That would mean they are crappy people produced by crappy society. There is always a choice. And being and aspie or not you cannot justify genocide, because someone was treated badly.
I understand the anger, the depression, the loneliness but I'd never ever hurt anyone in revenge. |
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auntblabby
Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
Posts: 18229
Location: the island of loveable toy humans
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| we all have our breaking point, but unfortunately for some that point is relatively low. |
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MjrMajorMajor
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 16, 2012
Age: 37
Posts: 3090
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| I don't care how depressed, angry, or disillusioned someone feels. How they acted on it was a choice, and they picked an evil one. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Do you feel any sympathy for bully victims who cause.... |
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| kojot wrote: | No. I don't know them and I don't identify with them.
I believe that horrible society produces horrible people. And in few cases it's just genetics.
| LittleSwallow wrote: |
So yeah, I do feel some sympathy for these shooters, because I have had mild depression a few years back, (Im 18 now) and it is amazing how diffrently you think of the world when you are mentally sick, because thats the thing, you think of these things in your mind that you think are right or wrong, and you are just not able to see the reality of the situation.
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Reality, right, wrong does not exit. They are abstractions created by people who didn't understand their sensory input well enough to form a more sophisticated model.
You never see the reality, you always see some "reality".
| LittleSwallow wrote: |
So imagine being in their shoes and state of mind where they think that shooting and killing people is the ony way to get their message across about defenceless people and how they have been driven to do these things. Because in a way, they actually have.
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That would mean they are crappy people produced by crappy society. There is always a choice. And being and aspie or not you cannot justify genocide, because someone was treated badly.
I understand the anger, the depression, the loneliness but I'd never ever hurt anyone in revenge. |
Well first of genocide, is not the appropriate term.......also that is where the looking at being in their shoes comes into play...maybe there was not such an apparent choice to them. Just throwing that idea out there, certainly not defending shooting people. But there certainly are two sides not just 'oh they were just born a bad person.' and it had nothing to do with anything else. I mean I will admit I am not a violent person but I remember sometimes feeling like causing harm to 'everyone who ever made my life hell.' more than once I never did obviously.........but I did have thoughts brought on by a lot of what was going on when I was in highschool and from the years of school before. Maybe some individuals are not so great at NOT acting on that.
But not all shootings have to do with bullying either...I just don't know I believe in evil people, I think everyone is capable of violence when pushed far enough over the edge. Again not trying to justify but it is the state of things. Also if right and wrong don't exist...how can you determine if someone is a horrible person? or be concerned with genocide being justified or not......seems like those things are getting kind of close to beliefs about right and wrong.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| MjrMajorMajor wrote: | | I don't care how depressed, angry, or disillusioned someone feels. How they acted on it was a choice, and they picked an evil one. |
Those are all actually very important factors...and not only should be looked into but have to be looked into should the perpetrator survive the incident and be put on trial.
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Looneytunes
Snowy Owl
Joined: Feb 22, 2012
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Everyone has a conscience - knows right from wrong.
The problem is - not everyone is brought up by the same two mothers and fathers.
I would guess there was something wrong long before he got to that school and all it took was some idiots to bring the worst out in that guy and make him do what he did.
The sad thing is - he shot people at random and not the people who caused all the problems for him.
Innocent people were killed for no good reason..... |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Looneytunes wrote: | Everyone has a conscience - knows right from wrong.
The problem is - not everyone is brought up by the same two mothers and fathers.
I would guess there was something wrong long before he got to that school and all it took was some idiots to bring the worst out in that guy and make him do what he did.
The sad thing is - he shot people at random and not the people who caused all the problems for him.
Innocent people were killed for no good reason..... |
Actually not everyone does have the same definition of right and wrong, and right and wrong is kind of subjective anyways. Also maybe those idiots should have thought about treating others how they want to be treated. I mean I am not trying to be all 'cool, people died.' or anything but why would you f*ck with someone till they reach breaking point? for one with the knowledge that sort of thing can cause school shootings it seems a very stupid thing to do........and two in general harassing people can cause them problems, so its simply not a nice thing to do.
Also how do you know everyone who died was totally innocent, and no one who died was one of the ones doing the bullying? I mean all anyone can get is second hand information so I am unclear on if it had to do with bullying or not, some other mental issues or just general finding enjoyment out of killing people(though that one i am doubting based on the info I have).
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clthomps
Blue Jay
Joined: Jan 23, 2012
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:02 am Post subject: |
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I have always had the mentality of "They had it coming". If bullies are to stupid to realize that there is a long track record of people fighting back in "extreme" ways they then deserve it.
That being said I do not support the rampage method of going after everyone, that is clearly psychotic. But for those who just take out the table of bullies my sympathy (the little i have...) is for the shooter. |
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Orr
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 12, 2011
Posts: 564
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Looneytunes wrote: | Everyone has a conscience - knows right from wrong.
The problem is - not everyone is brought up by the same two mothers and fathers.
I would guess there was something wrong long before he got to that school and all it took was some idiots to bring the worst out in that guy and make him do what he did.
The sad thing is - he shot people at random and not the people who caused all the problems for him.
Innocent people were killed for no good reason..... |
Those who were bullying likely had not so great an upbringing either. I have sympathy too for those unfortunate in having been traumatised by what happened. Students at the school, witnesses, families of the deceased, all having to suffer. The damage caused is tragic. Nobody has benefited.
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kojot
Blue Jay
Joined: Feb 18, 2012
Age: 28
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Do you feel any sympathy for bully victims who cause.... |
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| Sweetleaf wrote: | | kojot wrote: | No. I don't know them and I don't identify with them.
I believe that horrible society produces horrible people. And in few cases it's just genetics.
| LittleSwallow wrote: |
So yeah, I do feel some sympathy for these shooters, because I have had mild depression a few years back, (Im 18 now) and it is amazing how diffrently you think of the world when you are mentally sick, because thats the thing, you think of these things in your mind that you think are right or wrong, and you are just not able to see the reality of the situation.
|
Reality, right, wrong does not exit. They are abstractions created by people who didn't understand their sensory input well enough to form a more sophisticated model.
You never see the reality, you always see some "reality".
| LittleSwallow wrote: |
So imagine being in their shoes and state of mind where they think that shooting and killing people is the ony way to get their message across about defenceless people and how they have been driven to do these things. Because in a way, they actually have.
|
That would mean they are crappy people produced by crappy society. There is always a choice. And being and aspie or not you cannot justify genocide, because someone was treated badly.
I understand the anger, the depression, the loneliness but I'd never ever hurt anyone in revenge. |
Well first of genocide, is not the appropriate term.......also that is where the looking at being in their shoes comes into play...maybe there was not such an apparent choice to them. Just throwing that idea out there, certainly not defending shooting people. But there certainly are two sides not just 'oh they were just born a bad person.' and it had nothing to do with anything else. I mean I will admit I am not a violent person but I remember sometimes feeling like causing harm to 'everyone who ever made my life hell.' more than once I never did obviously.........but I did have thoughts brought on by a lot of what was going on when I was in highschool and from the years of school before. Maybe some individuals are not so great at NOT acting on that.
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Sorry, I meant homicide, I always mix them for some reason (English is not my native language)
Other than that I have no idea what're trying to say here, it's chaotic.
| Sweetleaf wrote: |
But not all shootings have to do with bullying either...I just don't know I believe in evil people, I think everyone is capable of violence when pushed far enough over the edge. Again not trying to justify but it is the state of things. Also if right and wrong don't exist...how can you determine if someone is a horrible person? or be concerned with genocide being justified or not......seems like those things are getting kind of close to beliefs about right and wrong. |
I agree, I don't believe in evil. It's more like greed, stupidity, ignorance and all that.
Hoe do you know if someone is a horrible person? You judge, filter it through your set of rules, beliefs, values, habits and come up with the answer. But there are no absolute terms or rules, there are only abstractions. Depending on how sophisticated your model is the more sophisticated is the answer. Judging by most peoples reactions, they have very simple model of 'reality' and that's just sad. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Do you feel any sympathy for bully victims who cause.... |
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| kojot wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | kojot wrote: | No. I don't know them and I don't identify with them.
I believe that horrible society produces horrible people. And in few cases it's just genetics.
| LittleSwallow wrote: |
So yeah, I do feel some sympathy for these shooters, because I have had mild depression a few years back, (Im 18 now) and it is amazing how diffrently you think of the world when you are mentally sick, because thats the thing, you think of these things in your mind that you think are right or wrong, and you are just not able to see the reality of the situation.
|
Reality, right, wrong does not exit. They are abstractions created by people who didn't understand their sensory input well enough to form a more sophisticated model.
You never see the reality, you always see some "reality".
| LittleSwallow wrote: |
So imagine being in their shoes and state of mind where they think that shooting and killing people is the ony way to get their message across about defenceless people and how they have been driven to do these things. Because in a way, they actually have.
|
That would mean they are crappy people produced by crappy society. There is always a choice. And being and aspie or not you cannot justify genocide, because someone was treated badly.
I understand the anger, the depression, the loneliness but I'd never ever hurt anyone in revenge. |
Well first of genocide, is not the appropriate term.......also that is where the looking at being in their shoes comes into play...maybe there was not such an apparent choice to them. Just throwing that idea out there, certainly not defending shooting people. But there certainly are two sides not just 'oh they were just born a bad person.' and it had nothing to do with anything else. I mean I will admit I am not a violent person but I remember sometimes feeling like causing harm to 'everyone who ever made my life hell.' more than once I never did obviously.........but I did have thoughts brought on by a lot of what was going on when I was in highschool and from the years of school before. Maybe some individuals are not so great at NOT acting on that.
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Sorry, I meant homicide, I always mix them for some reason (English is not my native language)
Other than that I have no idea what're trying to say here, it's chaotic.
That's alright, makes more sense...but I just was not suprised at the idea someone would use the term genocide meaningfully so I couldn't be sure.
| Sweetleaf wrote: |
But not all shootings have to do with bullying either...I just don't know I believe in evil people, I think everyone is capable of violence when pushed far enough over the edge. Again not trying to justify but it is the state of things. Also if right and wrong don't exist...how can you determine if someone is a horrible person? or be concerned with genocide being justified or not......seems like those things are getting kind of close to beliefs about right and wrong. |
I agree, I don't believe in evil. It's more like greed, stupidity, ignorance and all that.
Hoe do you know if someone is a horrible person? You judge, filter it through your set of rules, beliefs, values, habits and come up with the answer. But there are no absolute terms or rules, there are only abstractions. Depending on how sophisticated your model is the more sophisticated is the answer. Judging by most peoples reactions, they have very simple model of 'reality' and that's just sad. |
[b]
Yeah and I can agree I mean how else do you describe someone shooting people for revenge...it is rather horrible, and its obviously going to upset people and they can only express things within their understanding of their environment. But it is important to remember social and environmental factors always have to be considered when people resort to extremes like that.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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kojot
Blue Jay
Joined: Feb 18, 2012
Age: 28
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Do you feel any sympathy for bully victims who cause.... |
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| Sweetleaf wrote: | | kojot wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | kojot wrote: | No. I don't know them and I don't identify with them.
I believe that horrible society produces horrible people. And in few cases it's just genetics.
| LittleSwallow wrote: |
So yeah, I do feel some sympathy for these shooters, because I have had mild depression a few years back, (Im 18 now) and it is amazing how diffrently you think of the world when you are mentally sick, because thats the thing, you think of these things in your mind that you think are right or wrong, and you are just not able to see the reality of the situation.
|
Reality, right, wrong does not exit. They are abstractions created by people who didn't understand their sensory input well enough to form a more sophisticated model.
You never see the reality, you always see some "reality".
| LittleSwallow wrote: |
So imagine being in their shoes and state of mind where they think that shooting and killing people is the ony way to get their message across about defenceless people and how they have been driven to do these things. Because in a way, they actually have.
|
That would mean they are crappy people produced by crappy society. There is always a choice. And being and aspie or not you cannot justify genocide, because someone was treated badly.
I understand the anger, the depression, the loneliness but I'd never ever hurt anyone in revenge. |
Well first of genocide, is not the appropriate term.......also that is where the looking at being in their shoes comes into play...maybe there was not such an apparent choice to them. Just throwing that idea out there, certainly not defending shooting people. But there certainly are two sides not just 'oh they were just born a bad person.' and it had nothing to do with anything else. I mean I will admit I am not a violent person but I remember sometimes feeling like causing harm to 'everyone who ever made my life hell.' more than once I never did obviously.........but I did have thoughts brought on by a lot of what was going on when I was in highschool and from the years of school before. Maybe some individuals are not so great at NOT acting on that.
|
Sorry, I meant homicide, I always mix them for some reason (English is not my native language)
Other than that I have no idea what're trying to say here, it's chaotic.
That's alright, makes more sense...but I just was not suprised at the idea someone would use the term genocide meaningfully so I couldn't be sure.
| Sweetleaf wrote: |
But not all shootings have to do with bullying either...I just don't know I believe in evil people, I think everyone is capable of violence when pushed far enough over the edge. Again not trying to justify but it is the state of things. Also if right and wrong don't exist...how can you determine if someone is a horrible person? or be concerned with genocide being justified or not......seems like those things are getting kind of close to beliefs about right and wrong. |
I agree, I don't believe in evil. It's more like greed, stupidity, ignorance and all that.
Hoe do you know if someone is a horrible person? You judge, filter it through your set of rules, beliefs, values, habits and come up with the answer. But there are no absolute terms or rules, there are only abstractions. Depending on how sophisticated your model is the more sophisticated is the answer. Judging by most peoples reactions, they have very simple model of 'reality' and that's just sad. |
[b]
Yeah and I can agree I mean how else do you describe someone shooting people for revenge...it is rather horrible, and its obviously going to upset people and they can only express things within their understanding of their environment. But it is important to remember social and environmental factors always have to be considered when people resort to extremes like that. |
For me the sad thing is that we ("the west") live in a culture of violence. And violence makes more violence. Just look at the so called 'war on terrorism' and 'war on drugs'. It only makes things worse.
In part I blame the patriarchate, religions and their 'universal values', they are full of violence. The other part is ignorance and "shallow minds". People always seem to want quick, easy and simple solutions. The simplest of all: dualism. Good/bad, right/wrong, etc. I would say this love for oversimplification is the 'NT's disability' they just can't grasp complex ideas.
But even simple one, like compassion are hard or even impossible. It makes me very sad.
People just avoid thinking and asking tricky questions, they don't want the whole picture, they want 'the truth and justice', but only if it's their truth and their justice, they want stereotypes. If someone is brutal they have to be insane, traumatized or black or something other that fits.
Good kids from good homes are good. Bad kids from bad neighborhoods are bad. 'Simple truths of life'. And they move on.
Sorry, I'm ranting. But this world frustrates me. It's not my planet. |
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MjrMajorMajor
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 16, 2012
Age: 37
Posts: 3090
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Do you feel any sympathy for bully victims who cause.... |
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| Sweetleaf wrote: |
Yeah and I can agree I mean how else do you describe someone shooting people for revenge...it is rather horrible, and its obviously going to upset people and they can only express things within their understanding of their environment. But it is important to remember social and environmental factors always have to be considered when people resort to extremes like that. |
There are always underlying social, environmental, and psychological factors for why people do these things. I think it's important to understand them to be able to curb repeat instances of people acting out through violence. That said, I am a firm believer in personal accountability. Unless you're dealing with actual insanity, which sounds like may have been the case with the Gabrielle Giffords shooting, then that person has made the choice to escalate the violence. Two wrongs don't make a right. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Do you feel any sympathy for bully victims who cause.... |
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| kojot wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | kojot wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | kojot wrote: | No. I don't know them and I don't identify with them.
I believe that horrible society produces horrible people. And in few cases it's just genetics.
| LittleSwallow wrote: |
So yeah, I do feel some sympathy for these shooters, because I have had mild depression a few years back, (Im 18 now) and it is amazing how diffrently you think of the world when you are mentally sick, because thats the thing, you think of these things in your mind that you think are right or wrong, and you are just not able to see the reality of the situation.
|
Reality, right, wrong does not exit. They are abstractions created by people who didn't understand their sensory input well enough to form a more sophisticated model.
You never see the reality, you always see some "reality".
| LittleSwallow wrote: |
So imagine being in their shoes and state of mind where they think that shooting and killing people is the ony way to get their message across about defenceless people and how they have been driven to do these things. Because in a way, they actually have.
|
That would mean they are crappy people produced by crappy society. There is always a choice. And being and aspie or not you cannot justify genocide, because someone was treated badly.
I understand the anger, the depression, the loneliness but I'd never ever hurt anyone in revenge. |
Well first of genocide, is not the appropriate term.......also that is where the looking at being in their shoes comes into play...maybe there was not such an apparent choice to them. Just throwing that idea out there, certainly not defending shooting people. But there certainly are two sides not just 'oh they were just born a bad person.' and it had nothing to do with anything else. I mean I will admit I am not a violent person but I remember sometimes feeling like causing harm to 'everyone who ever made my life hell.' more than once I never did obviously.........but I did have thoughts brought on by a lot of what was going on when I was in highschool and from the years of school before. Maybe some individuals are not so great at NOT acting on that.
|
Sorry, I meant homicide, I always mix them for some reason (English is not my native language)
Other than that I have no idea what're trying to say here, it's chaotic.
That's alright, makes more sense...but I just was not suprised at the idea someone would use the term genocide meaningfully so I couldn't be sure.
| Sweetleaf wrote: |
But not all shootings have to do with bullying either...I just don't know I believe in evil people, I think everyone is capable of violence when pushed far enough over the edge. Again not trying to justify but it is the state of things. Also if right and wrong don't exist...how can you determine if someone is a horrible person? or be concerned with genocide being justified or not......seems like those things are getting kind of close to beliefs about right and wrong. |
I agree, I don't believe in evil. It's more like greed, stupidity, ignorance and all that.
Hoe do you know if someone is a horrible person? You judge, filter it through your set of rules, beliefs, values, habits and come up with the answer. But there are no absolute terms or rules, there are only abstractions. Depending on how sophisticated your model is the more sophisticated is the answer. Judging by most peoples reactions, they have very simple model of 'reality' and that's just sad. |
[b]
Yeah and I can agree I mean how else do you describe someone shooting people for revenge...it is rather horrible, and its obviously going to upset people and they can only express things within their understanding of their environment. But it is important to remember social and environmental factors always have to be considered when people resort to extremes like that. |
For me the sad thing is that we ("the west") live in a culture of violence. And violence makes more violence. Just look at the so called 'war on terrorism' and 'war on drugs'. It only makes things worse.
In part I blame the patriarchate, religions and their 'universal values', they are full of violence. The other part is ignorance and "shallow minds". People always seem to want quick, easy and simple solutions. The simplest of all: dualism. Good/bad, right/wrong, etc. I would say this love for oversimplification is the 'NT's disability' they just can't grasp complex ideas.
But even simple one, like compassion are hard or even impossible. It makes me very sad.
People just avoid thinking and asking tricky questions, they don't want the whole picture, they want 'the truth and justice', but only if it's their truth and their justice, they want stereotypes. If someone is brutal they have to be insane, traumatized or black or something other that fits.
Good kids from good homes are good. Bad kids from bad neighborhoods are bad. 'Simple truths of life'. And they move on.
Sorry, I'm ranting. But this world frustrates me. It's not my planet. |
Yeah I agree with all of that, it is quite sad to me as well.
_________________
It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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