Unacceptable Behaviour, Even For Aspies

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Koi
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21 Mar 2012, 3:08 pm

Us Aspies have many socially unacceptable traits and mannerisms, in the eyes of neurotypicals. Places like this, here on these forums, are safe-haven communities for Aspies to discuss these traits, these "flaws", and come together with support and understanding.

Whenever neurotypicals get ticked off by my "flaws", I always try to get them to understand by telling them about my syndrome. Never as an excuse! But just an explanation! I do not believe in us Aspies needing to conform to the neurotypical standards. We shouldn't have to.

BUT...
I think I have found an exception.

I have found someone who just takes things to a new extreme, that though explainable, should just not be excusable.

He's a boy in most of my classes who constantly interrupts people, and blurts things out EXTREMELY LOUDLY throughout the entire class. He repeats annoying phrases and jokes, and just will not stop talking even after being told stop multiple times by teachers and peers.
On top of that, he's rude. He says that he's "always right", and will insult and belittle anyone who has opposing opinions or doesn't know something he thinks to be "common knowledge".
It gets on my nerves, as well as everyone else's.

As a fellow Aspie, I should be understanding of him, right? I should accept him for what he is. But I don't accept these rude, annoying things! And I feel bad for it!
I just think there's a line between being an Aspie with your Aspie traits, and just being a down-right jerk—and I feel he's crossed that line.

What do you think? Do you think his actions are excusable and I'm just being too sensitive and pissy? Or that there is an extent to where you should try to shape up, even if it can technically be seen as conformity?



MrXxx
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21 Mar 2012, 3:13 pm

Stop feeling bad about it. Don't tolerate it.

Asperger's is not a license to be abusive. Jerks are jerks, no matter how many other labels they wear.


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21 Mar 2012, 3:20 pm

Koi wrote:
Us Aspies have many socially unacceptable traits and mannerisms, in the eyes of neurotypicals. Places like this, here on these forums, are safe-haven communities for Aspies to discuss these traits, these "flaws", and come together with support and understanding.

Whenever neurotypicals get ticked off by my "flaws", I always try to get them to understand by telling them about my syndrome. Never as an excuse! But just an explanation! I do not believe in us Aspies needing to conform to the neurotypical standards. We shouldn't have to.

BUT...
I think I have found an exception.

I have found someone who just takes things to a new extreme, that though explainable, should just not be excusable.

He's a boy in most of my classes who constantly interrupts people, and blurts things out EXTREMELY LOUDLY throughout the entire class. He repeats annoying phrases and jokes, and just will not stop talking even after being told stop multiple times by teachers and peers.
On top of that, he's rude. He says that he's "always right", and will insult and belittle anyone who has opposing opinions or doesn't know something he thinks to be "common knowledge".
It gets on my nerves, as well as everyone else's.

As a fellow Aspie, I should be understanding of him, right? I should accept him for what he is. But I don't accept these rude, annoying things! And I feel bad for it!
I just think there's a line between being an Aspie with your Aspie traits, and just being a down-right jerk—and I feel he's crossed that line.

What do you think? Do you think his actions are excusable and I'm just being too sensitive and pissy? Or that there is an extent to where you should try to shape up, even if it can technically be seen as conformity?



Nope don't tolerate it. AS doesn't give us a free pass to act that way. If they all can have a free pass, then I want a free pass to say whatever I want and it be everyone else's fault if they are hurt and if they don't like what I say. I would also like a free pass to have my way and be annoying all I want and not ever be responsible for my actions. I would also like a free pass to stab my husband with a knife and then have sympathy about me and being the victim and how bad the officers are for arresting me and trying to charge me with a crime or if they shot me for self defense, then i want people to be on my side and side against the officers. If I can't have this, then no other aspies can.



Koi
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21 Mar 2012, 3:23 pm

MrXxx wrote:
Stop feeling bad about it. Don't tolerate it.

Asperger's is not a license to be abusive. Jerks are jerks, no matter how many other labels they wear.

That's what I think!

But what gets me is that so many neurotypicals think that.
About all Aspies.

I get panic attacks, can't stand loud noises or bright lights and therefore get angry at them, and cease function in crowds. Does that sound unacceptable?
Again, yes, to most neurotypicals.

"Asperger's is not a license..." is something I hear so often (in other words), so again... where is the line drawn?

(I'm sorry I'm not very articulate today. My mind is just a little jumbled. But I hope I'm at least making some sort of sense.)



MrXxx
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21 Mar 2012, 3:28 pm

Koi wrote:
"Asperger's is not a license..." is something I hear so often (in other words), so again... where is the line drawn?


We each have to find our own line. Not even thinking about it though, and simply using AS as an excuse to never change or even try is ridiculous and unacceptable. Even here on WP, filled with Aspies. For gosh sakes, even we as a community have standards and limits to what's acceptable.


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I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...


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21 Mar 2012, 3:36 pm

He's not using it as a crutch. He's using it as an explanation as he tries to figure things out. He HAS to say it because it's almost like he's blind but nobody can see his disability. Its funny how nobody has said s**t or clamped down on him. You have to shock people to change things



Last edited by WhiteWidow on 21 Mar 2012, 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mds_02
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21 Mar 2012, 3:37 pm

Big difference between "Sorry, I have Asperger's. Some times I do rude things without realizing it, but I'll try not to do _____ in the future" and "I have Asperger's, so when I do _____, you just have to deal with it."

Unfortunately, some (on both sides) can't seem to make a distinction between the two. Aspies who think it gives them a license to behave any way they please. And others who interpret an apology/explanation as making excuses.


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Koi
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21 Mar 2012, 3:39 pm

MrXxx wrote:
Koi wrote:
"Asperger's is not a license..." is something I hear so often (in other words), so again... where is the line drawn?


We each have to find our own line. Not even thinking about it though, and simply using AS as an excuse to never change or even try is ridiculous and unacceptable. Even here on WP, filled with Aspies. For gosh sakes, even we as a community have standards and limits to what's acceptable.

I just suppose I'm always afraid of what people will think of me, and what I may do wrong.

But if we can all agree that what I described about the boy is unacceptable, then good! :lol:

I have this problem with inconsistency. I need things to be orderly and organized, labeled, categorized in a clean and easily understandable way.

Which is why I need to have a set line between what is acceptable Aspie behaviour and what isn't!



Koi
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21 Mar 2012, 3:41 pm

mds_02 wrote:
Big difference between "Sorry, I have Asperger's. Some times I do rude things without realizing it, but I'll try not to do _____ in the future" and "I have Asperger's, so when I do _____, you just have to deal with it."

Unfortunately, some (on both sides) can't seem to make a distinction between the two. Aspies who think it gives them a license to behave any way they please. And others who interpret an apology/explanation as making excuses.


-nod-
As I said in my previous post, I need things neat and organized and understandable, and I think this is very well written!

Thank you, this helps me a lot :cheers:



Invader
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21 Mar 2012, 3:47 pm

The thing is, everyone has their reasons for acting the way that they do.

People with autism are blunt because of the various factors that make them blunt. People who are complete dickheads are also that way because of the factors in their life that made them that way. Even people who kill others have legitimate reasons that explain why they ended up that way while other people don't.

There is no such thing as an objective "good" or "bad", there is no evil force that exists which makes people do things for no reason, everyone is nothing more than the sum of the various influential factors that have steered their life and mind to where it is right now.

The only reason that people say you should be tolerant towards those with autism is because their "problems" are officially recognised by an authority which claims to have the final say on whether or not something is morally acceptable, or should be tolerated or not.

People who are "bad" for reasons that you are unaware of, or reasons that are not officially recognised by the people who pretend to know everything, are no less deserving of tolerance than the people whose reasons are officially recognised. The reasons still exist, regardless of whether or not some arrogant organization which makes arbitrary rules has acknowledged their validity.

The only difference is that we feel we can get away with just calling these people as*holes, because no one has yet made up a medical sounding name for their reasons, a "condition" that we all have to be sensitive and understanding about. It is so much easier for us to only be tolerant towards the people that the big boss tells us to be tolerant of, while we just treat everyone else like scum who magically sidestep causality and appear to do evil deeds toward us for no reason whatsoever.

We save so much energy by being picky that way. Having to treat EVERYONE as a legitimate person with legitimate reasons for their actions would be such a drain. The human race has always found it easier to just demonize the people that they don't like, while making a few concessions here and there for the few people who are cared about just enough for their sins to be partially explained, understood and forgiven.



Last edited by Invader on 21 Mar 2012, 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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21 Mar 2012, 3:49 pm

Aspies trying to be leaders :? :? :?

In a support group I attended, some of the leader aspies who ran the show were a bit like that.

One certain male would talk all over you, could not listen properly and having a two way conversation was very difficult. I tried to get an apology from him once, as his inability to listen to others properly, caused much inconvenience to others in the group, but no way could he see that and apologise.



Last edited by Surfman on 21 Mar 2012, 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Koi
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21 Mar 2012, 3:54 pm

Invader wrote:
The thing is, everyone has their reasons for acting the way that they do.

You made some good points...

And yes, in behaviour, "good" and "bad" are indeed subjective, when you really get down to it.

But I think I'll draw the line at hurting others. Be it emotionally or physically.



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21 Mar 2012, 3:59 pm

Surfman wrote:
Aspies trying to be leaders :? :? :?

In a support group I attended, some of the leader aspies who ran the show were a bit like that.

One certain male would talk all over you, could not listen properly and having a two way conversation was very difficult. I tried to get an apology from him once but no way. He also manipulated the facilitators so was quite a poisonous piece of work.............

Burn them!! !!


Aspies can make great leaders because we operate on extremes but aspies should also be aware that they operate on extremes and have to follow the rules of a conversation where you let the other person talk after a little bit. I can get overwhelmed by how right I think I am, and how bad this person needs to have it stuck to them that I'll go off on a tantrum and leave the person bewildered and frightened.



Invader
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21 Mar 2012, 4:07 pm

Koi wrote:
Invader wrote:
The thing is, everyone has their reasons for acting the way that they do.

You made some good points...

And yes, in behaviour, "good" and "bad" are indeed subjective, when you really get down to it.

But I think I'll draw the line at hurting others. Be it emotionally or physically.


You can't draw that line though. The people who hurt others still have their own subjectively inescapable reasons. The intensity of your emotional reaction to what they have done (disgust, anger) is not a factor in whether or not they could have perceived any way to avoid doing it, or avoid being shaped into the kind of person who would do it.

Cause and effect don't work like that. Whether or not an outcome is inevitable is determined by the sequence of events preceeding it, the sum of all the influential factors which made it happen, it is not determined by the negative emotions of the people who are looking at the mess afterwards.

It's also an undebatable fact that good and evil simply do not exist. They are subjective judgements made by people, who, more often than not, are ignorant of the reasons behind the actions they are judging, and are ignorant of the fact that they would have been forced to behave in exactly the same way in the same situation, while subject to the same influential factors as whoever they are judging.

But we all find it much easier to mindlessly place blame on others instead of trying to resolve the problems in our world which force people to act in unpleasant ways in the first place. It is just so much less demanding on us.



Last edited by Invader on 21 Mar 2012, 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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21 Mar 2012, 4:09 pm

Invader wrote:
The thing is, everyone has their reasons for acting the way that they do.

People with autism are blunt because of the various factors that make them blunt. People who are complete dickheads are also that way because of the factors in their life that made them that way. Even people who kill others have legitimate reasons that explain why they ended up that way while other people don't.

There is no such thing as an objective "good" or "bad", there is no evil force that exists which makes people do things for no reason, everyone is nothing more than the sum of the various influential factors that have steered their life and mind to where it is right now.

The only reason that people say you should be tolerant towards those with autism is because their "problems" are officially recognised by an authority which claims to have the final say on whether or not something is morally acceptable, or should be tolerated or not.

People who are "bad" for reasons that you are unaware of, or reasons that are not officially recognised by the people who pretend to know everything, are no less deserving of tolerance than the people whose reasons are officially recognised. The reasons still exist, regardless of whether or not some arrogant organization which makes arbitrary rules has acknowledged their validity.

The only difference is that we feel we can get away with just calling these people as*holes, because no one has yet made up a medical sounding name for their reasons, a "condition" that we all have to be sensitive and understanding about. It is so much easier for us to only be tolerant towards the people that the big boss tells us to be tolerant of, while we just treat everyone else like scum who magically sidestep causality and appear to do evil deeds toward us for no reason whatsoever.

We save so much energy by being picky that way. Having to treat EVERYONE as a legitimate person with legitimate reasons for their actions would be such a drain. The human race has always found it easier to just demonize the people that they don't like, while making a few concessions here and there for the few people who are cared about just enough for their sins to be partially explained, understood and forgiven.


Thats very spiritual and deep dude. God would very proud of you :!:



Koi
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21 Mar 2012, 4:14 pm

Invader wrote:
Koi wrote:
Invader wrote:
The thing is, everyone has their reasons for acting the way that they do.

You made some good points...

And yes, in behaviour, "good" and "bad" are indeed subjective, when you really get down to it.

But I think I'll draw the line at hurting others. Be it emotionally or physically.


You can't draw that line though. The people who hurt others still have their own subjectively inescapable reasons. The intensity of your emotional reaction to what they have done (disgust, anger) is not a factor in whether or not they could have perceived any way to avoid doing it, or avoid being shaped into the kind of person who would do it.

Cause and effect don't work like that. Whether or not an outcome is inevitable is determined by the sequence of events preceeding it, the sum of all the influential factors which made it happen, it is not determined by the negative emotions of the people who are looking at the mess afterwards.

It's also an undebatable fact that good and evil simply do not exist. They are subjective judgements made by people, who, more often than not, are ignorant of the reasons behind the actions they are judging, and are ignorant of the fact that they would have been forced to behave in exactly the same way in the same situation, while subject to the same influential factors as whoever they are judging.

But we all find it much easier to mindlessly place blame on others instead of trying to resolve the problems in our world which force people to act in unpleasant ways in the first place. It is just so much less demanding on us.

I'm not trying to be mindless or ignorant... :(

I'm just saying that for myself, that's going to be my "default" line, I suppose you could say. I do take into account peoples' pasts and such. But, if I don't know, then yeah, as a human I am going to judge as a way to protect myself.

As for the boy? I've talked to him about it. He just says he likes to have fun and being rude to people is his way of messing around and I find that offensive (as does everyone else I know personally).