Tim_Tex
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 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject: What constitutes tolerance? Bigotry? |
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There seems to be a big divide on what these two terms actually define. But what would be the optimal definition of these words?
Does it involve having certain ideologies, religious beliefs, or supporting/opposing certain things?
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SpiritBlooms
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: What constitutes tolerance? Bigotry? |
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| Tim_Tex wrote: | There seems to be a big divide on what these two terms actually define. But what would be the optimal definition of these words?
Does it involve having certain ideologies, religious beliefs, or supporting/opposing certain things? |
No, I wouldn't say so. To me they're opposites of each other. Tolerance is the acceptance that there are others who are different than you and not letting the differences being a problem, bigotry is a lack of tolerance for those who are different, in which others' differences do present a perceived problem for the bigoted person and are on some level unacceptable to or misunderstood by them. I also think of tolerance as a lack of fear and bigotry as fear based. |
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TM
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| "Tolerance" is "I may not like what you do, it revolts me but I'll let you have it without bitching too much about it." |
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sage_gerard
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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I'll define bigotry as social bias and leave it at that for now.
| Quote: | | Tolerance is the acceptance that there are others who are different than you |
As TM implied, tolerance has the feel of bigotry because it suggests that someone has to be tolerated.
No one is free from forming colored opinions, so egalitarian people need to be aware of their own capacity for bigotry and recognize when it needs to be addressed as a personal issue.
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TM
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| sage_gerard wrote: | I'll define bigotry as social bias and leave it at that for now.
| Quote: | | Tolerance is the acceptance that there are others who are different than you |
As TM implied, tolerance has the feel of bigotry because it suggests that someone has to be tolerated.
No one is free from forming colored opinions, so egalitarian people need to be aware of their own capacity for bigotry and recognize when it needs to be addressed as a personal issue. |
The thing is, tolerating someone is fine, however forcing people to accept the choices of other people is dodgier than bigotry. |
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sage_gerard
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| TM wrote: | | The thing is, tolerating someone is fine, however forcing people to accept the choices of other people is dodgier than bigotry. |
Agreed, although toleration can still allow for the expression of bigotry, albeit in more subtle ways.
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Tim_Tex
Professor Hineybottom
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Here is what it seems the case is:
1. You can only be tolerant if you're liberal, and not a Christian.
2. If you oppose abortion, you hate women.
3. If you oppose same-sex marriage, you hate gay people.
4. If you support border security, you hate Mexicans.
5. If you support the death penalty, you hate black people (because they are more likely to be sentenced to death than a white person who commits the same crime).
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Chipshorter
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: What constitutes tolerance? Bigotry? |
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| SpiritBlooms wrote: | | I also think of tolerance as a lack of fear and bigotry as fear based. |
Your spot on with that observation about tolerance and bigotry. Would it fair to say that bigotry is a type of anxiety disorder, as before I was reading that there are links with xenophobia and PTSD (I am still looking to info to back that up that claim)?
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sage_gerard
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim_Tex wrote: | Here is what it seems the case is:
1. You can only be tolerant if you're liberal, and not a Christian.
2. If you oppose abortion, you hate women.
3. If you oppose same-sex marriage, you hate gay people.
4. If you support border security, you hate Mexicans.
5. If you support the death penalty, you hate black people (because they are more likely to be sentenced to death than a white person who commits the same crime). |
If you are trying to say that bigotry is often found in people who look too hard for bigots, just say that.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| sage_gerard wrote: | I'll define bigotry as social bias and leave it at that for now.
| Quote: | | Tolerance is the acceptance that there are others who are different than you |
As TM implied, tolerance has the feel of bigotry because it suggests that someone has to be tolerated.
No one is free from forming colored opinions, so egalitarian people need to be aware of their own capacity for bigotry and recognize when it needs to be addressed as a personal issue. |
good point from you and TM. maybe "acceptance" is a better word? or any other ideas?
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hyperlexian
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| Tim_Tex wrote: | Here is what it seems the case is:
1. You can only be tolerant if you're liberal, and not a Christian.
2. If you oppose abortion, you hate women.
3. If you oppose same-sex marriage, you hate gay people.
4. If you support border security, you hate Mexicans.
5. If you support the death penalty, you hate black people (because they are more likely to be sentenced to death than a white person who commits the same crime). |
well... i'd say that someone who opposes abortion wants to have control over the decisions i make with my body. and not wanting Mexicans to come into America (but allowing Canadians, for example) could be bigoted. opposing same sex marriage would also be bigoted against gays, as far as i can see.
you can be Christian and still support these things. there are Christians who are homosexual & married, and who support abortion rights and immigration. these things don't have to be mutually exclusive.
if you are not happy with the way you are labelled because of your ideas, change your ideas.
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Ancalagon
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | well... i'd say that someone who opposes abortion wants to have control over the decisions i make with my body. |
Then you'd be wrong. I don't want to get into too much detail, since I've sworn off debating this on the internet, but people who are opposed to abortion are opposed on the grounds that it's killing someone. They don't find killing someone in the name of controlling your own body acceptable. (And, yes, I know that those who support abortions would say there isn't anybody there yet.)
| Quote: | | and not wanting Mexicans to come into America (but allowing Canadians, for example) could be bigoted. |
Could be. Or some of the people supporting stronger border controls could be worried about legitimate issues, such as criminal activity. Altering border controls across the board would have an impact on both Mexicans and Canadians, but it is likely to be a bigger deal for one than the other. Is that prudent or prejudiced? I don't think there is a way to decide that without looking at the specific details involved.
| Quote: | | opposing same sex marriage would also be bigoted against gays, as far as i can see. |
Why?
| Quote: | | if you are not happy with the way you are labelled because of your ideas, change your ideas. |
You think that someone who is unhappy at being unfairly labelled should change their ideas to fit those of the labeller? What?
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hyperlexian
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | well... i'd say that someone who opposes abortion wants to have control over the decisions i make with my body. |
Then you'd be wrong. I don't want to get into too much detail, since I've sworn off debating this on the internet, but people who are opposed to abortion are opposed on the grounds that it's killing someone. They don't find killing someone in the name of controlling your own body acceptable. (And, yes, I know that those who support abortions would say there isn't anybody there yet.) |
it's my body, so if someone wants to oppose abortion they are deciding for me what i can do with it. the foetus would be growing in my uterus.
| Ancalagon wrote: | | Could be. Or some of the people supporting stronger border controls could be worried about legitimate issues, such as criminal activity. Altering border controls across the board would have an impact on both Mexicans and Canadians, but it is likely to be a bigger deal for one than the other. Is that prudent or prejudiced? I don't think there is a way to decide that without looking at the specific details involved. |
that would be assuming that Mexicans are criminals. they can be well-educated and law abiding citizens just like Canadians can be.
| Ancalagon wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | opposing same sex marriage would also be bigoted against gays, as far as i can see. |
Why? |
it discriminates against gay people.
| Ancalagon wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | if you are not happy with the way you are labelled because of your ideas, change your ideas. |
You think that someone who is unhappy at being unfairly labelled should change their ideas to fit those of the labeller? What? |
if a person has bigoted ideas, then a person can expect those ideas to be labelled as such. if they are unhappy with that, then logically they can change their ideas.
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Ancalagon
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | Ancalagon wrote: | | Then you'd be wrong. I don't want to get into too much detail, since I've sworn off debating this on the internet, but people who are opposed to abortion are opposed on the grounds that it's killing someone. They don't find killing someone in the name of controlling your own body acceptable. (And, yes, I know that those who support abortions would say there isn't anybody there yet.) |
it's my body, so if someone wants to oppose abortion they are deciding for me what i can do with it. the foetus would be growing in my uterus. |
It's not your body getting killed.
This sort of discussion always ends up getting nasty, so like I said, I don't really want to talk about it.
| Quote: | | that would be assuming that Mexicans are criminals. they can be well-educated and law abiding citizens just like Canadians can be. |
No, it assumes that the crime rate is higher in Mexico than it is in Canada.
| Quote: | | Ancalagon wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | opposing same sex marriage would also be bigoted against gays, as far as i can see. |
Why? |
it discriminates against gay people. |
You're just repeating yourself. I was hoping for an actual explanation.
| Quote: | | if a person has bigoted ideas, then a person can expect those ideas to be labelled as such. if they are unhappy with that, then logically they can change their ideas. |
You're assuming that the ideas involved are bigoted ideas.
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LiendaBalla
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Tim_Tex wrote: | Here is what it seems the case is:
1. You can only be tolerant if you're liberal, and not a Christian. |
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