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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14839
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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 Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:24 pm Post subject: Vulnerability to self-judgement tirades? |
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Anyone have this issue?
What typically happens is I'll be getting along fine in life, then something will hit that really beats me in the face with my own limitations. When that happens I can spend half the day if I'm not careful pretty much telling myself what a piece of s&*( I am, trying to talk myself into honor suicide, and while it typically doesn't lead anywhere per say it worries me in that I know things like this can stop you from living life in a lot of ways - ie. fear of judgement, fear of the book of stamps hitting you, what you'll do in response, etc. etc..
Any recommendations from people who've gotten through and over it? I've gotten progressively better since my early 20's but I know I still have a long way to go.
Thanks. |
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questor
Hermit
Joined: Apr 24, 2011
Posts: 1983
Location: Twilight Zone
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:42 pm Post subject: Self critizism and depression |
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| You just have to find ways to keep yourself occupied and distracted. |
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AldousH
Snowy Owl
Joined: Oct 06, 2010
Age: 25
Posts: 159
Location: SE Europe
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 1:36 am Post subject: |
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The above it's good advice. Sadly, I find that it works in an inverse proportion to the times that it's given (which is pretty often).
If this wouldn't affect your life in any way, you could consider drinking a couple of beers when you're self depreciating. Alcohol does raise your self-esteem for a while.
Stop thinking of honor suicide, it's way out of line. You're not a samurai or a Prussian general. |
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Azmodania
Raven
Joined: Jan 25, 2011
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:15 am Post subject: |
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I recognize the slap in the face effect and then did as questor suggested: sought distraction.
For me that is a short-term solution.
My initial reaction is based on something within me, and that something does not change or go away with beers or entertainment.
The distractions do help to bridge time periods inbetween the face slaps and the moment you deal with the underlying issue.
But the only solution from my point of view is dealing with it.
Going face forward into the misery, feel useless and all those words that seem to apply at such a moment in time.
Key is to not let the negative feelings take over controls, which can be difficult.
I think that is why I postpone this alot and then handle it when I feel I have the strength to see beyond what I feel.
I try to accept my limitations (I fail alot there lately.. I try, I really do).
As a result it makes life really difficult and then there is more accepting that.
It is quite sad really.
Life is difficult and there is all sorts of solutions.
Numbing the pain by fleeing, stopping it altogether, everybody has their escape routes.
What I sense after I faced the negative realizations is worth the horrible journey through them.
My whole being screams that I cannot handle the journey when I am in the middle of it.
But I know, somewhere, far away in a rational, observing part of me, that I have fought these battles before and I will still be there at the end.
So I trust myself, indulge in the fears, let my mind go crazy on its sidetracks and concerns.
I loose myself. I panick.
I see no way out.
It stops.
I am amazed by the change of perspective.
I need to throw all attachments away and it does feel like dying in a way to get there.
It is a mind battle though, and it is all my own creation.
I create the fears, the desires, the disappointments myself.
And then blame me for not coping.
Afterwards feels disoriented, but at the same time clear.
I addressed the source.
It feels like I am drowning during that process.
I struggle so hard to keep afloat.
Then I suffocate.
I go under.
I am void.
nothingness
I wonder.
Inhale.
I am now a fish. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14839
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| AldousH wrote: | | If this wouldn't affect your life in any way, you could consider drinking a couple of beers when you're self depreciating. Alcohol does raise your self-esteem for a while. |
Heh, most often at times like this its just not an available option. I can't really tell my boss or my instructor "Hey, I'm gonna go take a run to the corner - be back in a couple hours"
Alcohol also can either go away - it can help me get distracted *if* I have things to distract me, otherwise I can just tunnel into what's happened and what it meant even more.
| Azmodania wrote: | I recognize the slap in the face effect and then did as questor suggested: sought distraction.
For me that is a short-term solution.
My initial reaction is based on something within me, and that something does not change or go away with beers or entertainment.
The distractions do help to bridge time periods inbetween the face slaps and the moment you deal with the underlying issue.
But the only solution from my point of view is dealing with it.
Going face forward into the misery, feel useless and all those words that seem to apply at such a moment in time.
Key is to not let the negative feelings take over controls, which can be difficult.
I think that is why I postpone this alot and then handle it when I feel I have the strength to see beyond what I feel.
I try to accept my limitations (I fail alot there lately.. I try, I really do).
As a result it makes life really difficult and then there is more accepting that.
It is quite sad really.
Life is difficult and there is all sorts of solutions.
Numbing the pain by fleeing, stopping it altogether, everybody has their escape routes.
What I sense after I faced the negative realizations is worth the horrible journey through them.
My whole being screams that I cannot handle the journey when I am in the middle of it.
But I know, somewhere, far away in a rational, observing part of me, that I have fought these battles before and I will still be there at the end.
So I trust myself, indulge in the fears, let my mind go crazy on its sidetracks and concerns.
I loose myself. I panick.
I see no way out.
It stops.
I am amazed by the change of perspective.
I need to throw all attachments away and it does feel like dying in a way to get there.
It is a mind battle though, and it is all my own creation.
I create the fears, the desires, the disappointments myself.
And then blame me for not coping.
Afterwards feels disoriented, but at the same time clear.
I addressed the source.
It feels like I am drowning during that process.
I struggle so hard to keep afloat.
Then I suffocate.
I go under.
I am void.
nothingness
I wonder.
Inhale.
I am now a fish. |
Sage.
I'd love to figure out how to have an answer to these things before they start embedded deep enough that I rectify it before it happens. I think I've had perfectionists pound on me and make sure I grind these things into myself for much longer than I've had positive messages in the other direction coming through internally - hence part of the dilemma. |
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OliveOilMom
Queen of cans and jars
Joined: Nov 12, 2011
Posts: 6783
Location: Living in Faulkner's nightmare
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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For me, a lot of it has to do with whats called "self talk". Little phrases that you seem to say to yourself in your head a lot. I used to say "I hate myself" or "I should die" to myself in my head a whole lot and then I read somewhere or heard somewhere, maybe on Oprah or something, about how that influences you. You are supposed to try to pay attention to what self talk you do, and when you do something negative stop and say the opposite to yourself. Of course at first you don't believe it, but if you keep doing it, over days and weeks you will notice a big overall improvement in how you think of yourself.
Apparantly the self talk gets you at a subconscious level and causes you to feel either negatively or positively, depending on the type of self talk you normally do. I didn't think it would really do anything, but I tried it for a while and it worked. I started feeling a little better after a few days. The trick is to catch yourself thinking those things. People tend to say certain things and phrases to themselves over and over again, almost automatically at times, and because it's so frequent and we are so used to it, we don't pay much attention to them. We know they are there but we don't think about them. You have to try and keep a lookout for when you do it and try to stop it in the middle of it and say the opposite. If you catch yourself at the very end, say you think something like "I hate myself" and realize it right after you have said it to yourself, then think to yourself "No I don't, I love myself". The more you do it, the easier it is to notice when you do the self talk.
It's not an instant overnight cure all, but it does help and it doesn't take that long. I haven't paid much attention to mine lately and I'm pretty negative and hard on myself right now, so I need to get back into noticing it.
_________________
Frances
I can be a little much sometimes. |
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blueroses
restless, but going nowhere
Joined: Feb 11, 2007
Age: 30
Posts: 1599
Location: Lancaster, PA
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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I think that when a behavioral pattern or a pattern of emotional responses becomes very deeply ingrained, it can be tough to be able to step back and realize you're going to far. (And, having thoughts about honor suicide, is really going too far).
So, if you can't fully see what's going on, it can be a tought thing to handle on your own. The best thing might be to talk with someone you trust about the thoughts you are having, so they can give you some perspective and help you see your circumstances more clearly.
This might sound like blasphemy to someone who is as cerebral as you are, Techstep, but we are all much, much more than our thoughts. And, very rarely are any of our thoughts about ourselves actually accurate. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14839
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| OliveOilMom wrote: | For me, a lot of it has to do with whats called "self talk". Little phrases that you seem to say to yourself in your head a lot. I used to say "I hate myself" or "I should die" to myself in my head a whole lot and then I read somewhere or heard somewhere, maybe on Oprah or something, about how that influences you. You are supposed to try to pay attention to what self talk you do, and when you do something negative stop and say the opposite to yourself. Of course at first you don't believe it, but if you keep doing it, over days and weeks you will notice a big overall improvement in how you think of yourself.
Apparantly the self talk gets you at a subconscious level and causes you to feel either negatively or positively, depending on the type of self talk you normally do. I didn't think it would really do anything, but I tried it for a while and it worked. I started feeling a little better after a few days. The trick is to catch yourself thinking those things. People tend to say certain things and phrases to themselves over and over again, almost automatically at times, and because it's so frequent and we are so used to it, we don't pay much attention to them. We know they are there but we don't think about them. You have to try and keep a lookout for when you do it and try to stop it in the middle of it and say the opposite. If you catch yourself at the very end, say you think something like "I hate myself" and realize it right after you have said it to yourself, then think to yourself "No I don't, I love myself". The more you do it, the easier it is to notice when you do the self talk.
It's not an instant overnight cure all, but it does help and it doesn't take that long. I haven't paid much attention to mine lately and I'm pretty negative and hard on myself right now, so I need to get back into noticing it. |
That's great advice, then again I get the impression - a bit like hypnosis, different people have different levels of susceptibility with this one; all depending on how their brain is arranged and where their main wiring is planted. I had psychologists tell me this for years and while 'fake it till you make it' has some truth to it, for me its a bit like the hypnotherapist telling a smoker that cigarettes taste like road tar (the 'macho' approach they call it) which gives a blatant statement but if the brain factors all of its other evidence or the person tastes a cigarette and it doesn't taste like road tar - it caves on itself. My challenge on this front is I have a brain that's too sensitive for its own good to self-talk contrary to awareness, no matter how positive.
| blueroses wrote: | | So, if you can't fully see what's going on, it can be a tought thing to handle on your own. The best thing might be to talk with someone you trust about the thoughts you are having, so they can give you some perspective and help you see your circumstances more clearly. This might sound like blasphemy to someone who is as cerebral as you are, Techstep, but we are all much, much more than our thoughts. And, very rarely are any of our thoughts about ourselves actually accurate. |
The only trouble with that - I can't think of much I could tell that person IRL that I haven't said here.
The wedge is that (like I'd imagine it is for everyone), people's self-judgments revolve around very realistic and caustic judgments that the world around them levies - things that don't necessarily change on a day to day basis regardless of what we tell ourselves. That given, it seems like the easiest way to fix it would be finding a path of logic that transcends that reality and essentially renders judgments levied against us, perhaps null and void would be a stronger phrasing than what can be realistically achieved, but at least written down from 'serious threat' to 'minor annoyance'. |
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Azmodania
Raven
Joined: Jan 25, 2011
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | I'd love to figure out how to have an answer to these things before they start embedded deep enough that I rectify it before it happens. |
That would be most efficient; I find it really difficult though.
Usually I am only aware of what is going on when my mind is going full speed towards the ravine.
It had been building up to that speed for some time.
That speed does make the whole crash easier, the destruction of the construct.
Once I realized at work, that I had started yet another one of these runs.
I tend to direct this inwards. I can be consuming my whole self and at the meanwhile appear happy to my surroundings.
So I caught myself a few minutes after this particular slap in the face.
Applied brakes, as not to go on inward crash course.
I needed a target, and figured the origin of the slap would be a good one.
But that was work-political-wise not a very smart move.
Also I do realize that what is so horribly wrong and painful for me, is completely fine to them.
They did not mean to cause this.
It made me decide not to pong it right back to the source.
Righteousness complains.
Sidetrack commencing.
I stop that too.
"HALT, just HALT", I scream to my brain.
I focus on the real puzzle: I got slapped in the face and I am not gonna consume myself.
Where does it go?
This whole process is really fast. I sat at my desk and felt like steam coming out of my ears because of the heavy processsing and brakepad friction.
It needs to go somewhere.. I can not just pretend that was nothing.
To pretend it did not happen is not the truth and I do not do lies (which is not true.. I need to hide my own lies from myself because I cannot accept the phenomenon. Then I did need them to survive. It creates complex structures. I do not recommend this).
There was no just course I could see and I also refused to go on the familiar self destructive road.
I scan my surroundings.
One coworker who is the silent type.
I rant.
While I rant, I swallow half of the words on my lips because they would have gotten me in trouble.
I cannot have trouble.
It was like going from a slippery slide at 1 meter per second, forcing your hands into the material for control.
No clue what that coworker thought. Never said anything about it.
Neither did I.
Was it effective?
I am not sure. It felt like a huge amount of work and I needed new brakepads and my palms were smoking from that slippery slide. I hate the injustice. The silent coworker had nothing to do with it.
I never appied this method again and don't want to.
I am curious if other people tried possible solutions to this problem.
It can be quite damaging trying things out in the work environment.
What I try to do myself for now is to protect myself by adjusting the environment (= I stay in my house).
For the future I would like to learn how to do the 'serious threat' -> 'minor annoyance' evolution on the spot.
I think that can be achieved. I wonder at the cost though: if I do not care.. am I still me?
I am not a fish. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14839
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Oops, I just looked at what you quoted from me - it was complete phoenetic jibberish. Think I might have had the cursor jump while I was typing. I was probably trying to say that I wanted to stop these things before they started but, to tell the truth, I have no idea what sentence the last half was a part of.  |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14839
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Azmodania wrote: |
That would be most efficient; I find it really difficult though.
Usually I am only aware of what is going on when my mind is going full speed towards the ravine.
It had been building up to that speed for some time.
That speed does make the whole crash easier, the destruction of the construct.
Once I realized at work, that I had started yet another one of these runs.
I tend to direct this inwards. I can be consuming my whole self and at the meanwhile appear happy to my surroundings.
So I caught myself a few minutes after this particular slap in the face.
Applied brakes, as not to go on inward crash course.
I needed a target, and figured the origin of the slap would be a good one.
But that was work-political-wise not a very smart move.
Also I do realize that what is so horribly wrong and painful for me, is completely fine to them.
They did not mean to cause this.
It made me decide not to pong it right back to the source.
Righteousness complains.
Sidetrack commencing.
I stop that too.
"HALT, just HALT", I scream to my brain.
I focus on the real puzzle: I got slapped in the face and I am not gonna consume myself.
Where does it go?
This whole process is really fast. I sat at my desk and felt like steam coming out of my ears because of the heavy processsing and brakepad friction.
It needs to go somewhere.. I can not just pretend that was nothing.
To pretend it did not happen is not the truth and I do not do lies (which is not true.. I need to hide my own lies from myself because I cannot accept the phenomenon. Then I did need them to survive. It creates complex structures. I do not recommend this).
There was no just course I could see and I also refused to go on the familiar self destructive road.
I scan my surroundings.
One coworker who is the silent type.
I rant.
While I rant, I swallow half of the words on my lips because they would have gotten me in trouble.
I cannot have trouble.
It was like going from a slippery slide at 1 meter per second, forcing your hands into the material for control.
No clue what that coworker thought. Never said anything about it.
Neither did I.
Was it effective?
I am not sure. It felt like a huge amount of work and I needed new brakepads and my palms were smoking from that slippery slide. I hate the injustice. The silent coworker had nothing to do with it.
I never appied this method again and don't want to.
I am curious if other people tried possible solutions to this problem.
It can be quite damaging trying things out in the work environment.
What I try to do myself for now is to protect myself by adjusting the environment (= I stay in my house).
For the future I would like to learn how to do the 'serious threat' -> 'minor annoyance' evolution on the spot.
I think that can be achieved. I wonder at the cost though: if I do not care.. am I still me?
I am not a fish. |
Yeah, I really try not to complain to coworkers much. If I'm in a situation - workwise - that's frustrating we can usually all relate to that and I keep it there. Thankfully no one directly 'rides' me here, it just an issue of having odd things come up at odd times, mainly because communication is crap where I work. I'll have moments where I start wondering if I can amount to anything at all.
To give some backdrop on my work situation - I have beyond failing marks performance wise, but no fire - mainly because those marks are beyond my control. Our company does commission-based auditing, we have errors to recover, and when our sales team literally can't bring audits in they can't bring them in. I've heard it said by other associates that our job is like shooting fish in a barrel - the trouble is what kind of barrels you're given. This year's been a nightmare, as in if I were to ratio my quota income so far against what I've brought in, my F would be somewhere between 5 and 10%. Its a bit unreal and I have a lot of trepidation about trying new jobs based on just how many have that "Nah, we don't need to train you. Your an adult - you'll figure it out" mentality and just fire anyone within a month who doesn't osmose it all. |
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mntn13
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 07, 2011
Posts: 1006
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Azmodania wrote: | I recognize the slap in the face effect and then did as questor suggested: sought distraction.
For me that is a short-term solution.
My initial reaction is based on something within me, and that something does not change or go away with beers or entertainment.
The distractions do help to bridge time periods inbetween the face slaps and the moment you deal with the underlying issue.
But the only solution from my point of view is dealing with it.
Going face forward into the misery, feel useless and all those words that seem to apply at such a moment in time.
Key is to not let the negative feelings take over controls, which can be difficult.
I think that is why I postpone this alot and then handle it when I feel I have the strength to see beyond what I feel.
I try to accept my limitations (I fail alot there lately.. I try, I really do).
As a result it makes life really difficult and then there is more accepting that.
It is quite sad really.
Life is difficult and there is all sorts of solutions.
Numbing the pain by fleeing, stopping it altogether, everybody has their escape routes.
What I sense after I faced the negative realizations is worth the horrible journey through them.
My whole being screams that I cannot handle the journey when I am in the middle of it.
But I know, somewhere, far away in a rational, observing part of me, that I have fought these battles before and I will still be there at the end.
So I trust myself, indulge in the fears, let my mind go crazy on its sidetracks and concerns.
I loose myself. I panick.
I see no way out.
It stops.
I am amazed by the change of perspective.
I need to throw all attachments away and it does feel like dying in a way to get there.
It is a mind battle though, and it is all my own creation.
I create the fears, the desires, the disappointments myself.
And then blame me for not coping.
Afterwards feels disoriented, but at the same time clear.
I addressed the source.
It feels like I am drowning during that process.
I struggle so hard to keep afloat.
Then I suffocate.
I go under.
I am void.
nothingness
I wonder.
Inhale.
I am now a fish. |
^
Azmodania, wow nice writing.
techstepgenr8tion, I was just going to (non-helpingly)say that I do this on a regualre basis and don't know how to stop it. I just try and hang in there until it passes, or do a really hard workout with music. |
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Saturn
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 24, 2011
Posts: 317
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Vulnerability to self-judgement tirades? |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | Anyone have this issue?
What typically happens is I'll be getting along fine in life, then something will hit that really beats me in the face with my own limitations. When that happens I can spend half the day if I'm not careful pretty much telling myself what a piece of s&*( I am, trying to talk myself into honor suicide, and while it typically doesn't lead anywhere per say it worries me in that I know things like this can stop you from living life in a lot of ways - ie. fear of judgement, fear of the book of stamps hitting you, what you'll do in response, etc. etc..
Any recommendations from people who've gotten through and over it? I've gotten progressively better since my early 20's but I know I still have a long way to go.
Thanks. |
I'm reading this as a question of self esteem. I'm looking to get some kind of genuine, core self esteem because I see that as the central issue for me, what I want, and what will serve as a basis for the various areas of my life to take shape in a way that I would like.
I like the way you want to persevere with this matter rather than opt for distractions or unfounded different self-talk as a solution. For me, like you, rather, I want to get to the bottom of it. I believe there is an explanation and there is an answer of sorts, and while I may never be able to fully articulate that, even to myself, I don't think I need to in order to work through some of misplaced beliefs I have and ultimately just feel bettter about myself. |
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Ancalagon
Computer Geek
Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 2388
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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The subconscious doesn't understand logic. If you think "I suck" then your subconscious will go:   "Oh, no, I suck". If you think "I'm awesome" then your subconscious will go:   "Oh, sweet, I'm awesome".
You don't want to lie to your subconscious, but you do want to spin things in a positive way. If you just failed at something, you want to tell it that you'll do better next time, or that even if you can't do that one thing, at least you can admit your faults to yourself. Just don't let yourself tell yourself that you're worthless and should kill yourself. That's not true, but your subconscious won't be able to tell.
_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton |
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Saturn
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 24, 2011
Posts: 317
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | The subconscious doesn't understand logic. If you think "I suck" then your subconscious will go: "Oh, no, I suck". If you think "I'm awesome" then your subconscious will go: "Oh, sweet, I'm awesome".
You don't want to lie to your subconscious, but you do want to spin things in a positive way. If you just failed at something, you want to tell it that you'll do better next time, or that even if you can't do that one thing, at least you can admit your faults to yourself. Just don't let yourself tell yourself that you're worthless and should kill yourself. That's not true, but your subconscious won't be able to tell. |
I'm sorry but to me that sounds like superficial self-talk therapy dogma. Still, if that is your experience and it works for you, then I am nobody to say otherwise. |
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