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cubedemon6073
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10 Aug 2012, 4:50 pm

Attitude is a position of the body indicating a particular mental state as the oxford dictionary states. There is a circular nature of attitude and this is what is accepted in our American cultural, society and our body politic. The circular nature is as follows my outcomes can cause my attitude and my attitude can cause my outcomes and problems. Many people in our modern day society focus on one of the components to an extreme at the huge disregard of the other. My position of my body and my mental state is looked at first before anything else.

In order to illustrate what I am conveying I am going to narrate an event from my personal life. I was pulled over one time for reckless driving because I panicked when I overslept through my alarm. I was taken to the holding cell for eight hours. They told me I would be released within the hour. A few months later I had my day in court. A fine had to be paid and I had to go to a driving school. Before this time, I had major problems driving and switching lanes. I did not know how to do it that well. As I was taking the class, the instructor Mr. James Brock, told us all what to do.

He said and I am paraphrasing that before I switch lanes I need to look in my mirrors and make sure I can see the car’s full bumper and headlights. He said to speed up a little to see if anyone was in this lane. This was the instruction I was missing. I was able to incorporate this in the way I drive and I was able to improve my driving in a profound way. Mr. Brock even said he would tolerate no nonsense and anyone who fell asleep would be kicked out and anyone who didn’t take notes would be kicked out. He was very detailed and he told us word for word what to write down. It was very concrete. It was one of the easiest courses I ever took. This is one event in many that has led me to my path to challenge the extreme focus of my attitude causing outcomes.

Modern society focuses on attitude more so than the problem itself. I kept trying to tell my wife and others that I had major problems driving because I am not able to switch the lanes that well. I felt like I was endangering myself and others. This is one reason I had others drive my car in the past. No one including my wife would tell me what I was supposed to do. They had the answer but would not tell me. All they kept focusing on was my attitude and being more positive. They truthfully believed that all I had to do was believe in myself and my ability and I would be able to which was false. Once Mr. Brock gave the instructions and I was able to incorporate them into my driving habits I was able to function with and drive the vehicle a lot better. My confidence to drive went up and true positivity showed through because of this positive experience with Mr. James Brock and the Taggert Driving School.

Attitude is the emotional reaction to a stimulus. A stimulus based upon the oxford dictionary is a thing or event that evokes a specific functional reaction in an organ or tissue. This stimulus causes certain chemical reactions and certain endorphins to be produced in a Homo Sapien Sapien’s Brain. How do you stop the chemical reactions or certain endorphins from happening or being produced? The stimulus has to be removed or conquered. Those who believe in the attitude doctrine seem to say the converse. They want the Homo Sapien Sapien or human being to automatically turn off his chemical reactions and stop these endorphins from being removed. It is treated as it is as voluntary as moving a finger. This is false. In laymen’s terms the issue has to be solved before one can change his attitude. For me, my lack of knowledge was my stimulus that produced my negativity of my ability to drive. Mr. James Brock removed this stimulus by telling me the knowledge.

It is the same thing with employment. Unless it is blatantly obvious to me, I do not know how to conduct my behavior in certain situations that may crop up. Some of the employers give a battery of tests like the personality tests and timed tests that have mathematical word problems. For the personality tests, I do not know how to interpret the questions in the way they’re supposed to be interpreted. For example, a section of worktec before funding was cut helped me to apply for a job at staples. This counselor walked me through the personality test and even she had major issues interpreting the questions. One question that was asked of me was “did I believe life was unfair?” I went by two definitions that I thought fit the best. Somehow I was able to memorize the definitions over time.

Here are the definitions. Fair means that something is free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice: a fair decision; a fair judge and it is legitimately sought, pursued, done, given, etc.; proper under the rules: a fair fight. This created a logical paradox. If fair meant these two definitions then at the time is life being unfair a proper rule unto itself? The counselor told me that I was over-thinking and over-analyzing the question. She told me to put yes and did not really explain what they were asking.
Another question I was asked was “Do I believe in order to obtain a job it is who I know and not what I know?” This was from a different personality test. I did not understand this question because it is factually true that in order to obtain a lot of jobs it truthfully is who you know. Why would they ask if I believed it? Believing it means it is my opinion. This is fact though. Fact means that this is provable and it actually is true. I can ask other people and small talk with other people and they can describe to me how they got their jobs. They knew someone in the organization. What was the intent behind this question?

Besides understanding the subtext and context of the questions I do not understand some of the formats they have out there. For example, I still do not understand strongly agree, agree, disagree, and strongly disagree. If I strongly agree do I not disagree but in a very weak manner? If I agree then do I not have disagreements and my agreement and disagreement is balanced? If I have a strong disagreement do I not have a minor or weak agreement? What if I think my agreement and disagreement should be 50/50? How do I represent that and how do I give my reasoning? What are the formal logical formulas for agreeing and disagreeing?

As you see, I do not see nor understand by what I have stated here how it is logically and biologically possible for one to change his attitude. In order for a person’s attitude to change his or her stimuli would have to be changed. Like the Taggert example, I would need my stimuli changed or removed. For this to happen, I would need intricate instruction on how to interpret not only the interview questions but these types of tests as well. I would need to know how to do a word problem test when it is timed. There are certain identity and philosophical problems I have as well. How does one be true to oneself and know thine self be true and still conform to the employer’s standards? Overall, one can’t change his attitude unless his stimulus is changed or removed.



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10 Aug 2012, 8:00 pm

I'm an NT with some autistic traits and am the mother of a daughter dx with HFA. This is how I see it, and I hope trying to see things this way helps you understand why people keep talking about attitude.

I see attitude as your way of looking at things that happen to you. You can have a positive attitude, expecting that you will find a solution to the challenges that arise and will survive life's tragedies, or you can have a negative attitude and believe that everything that happens is a catastrophe and you are powerless to change it. (And, of course, anything in between.) Believing you can change your circumstances, that what other people think about you does not define you, and that what happens is not as important as how you deal with it, helps put things in perspective and helps you to build a more positive attitude. In my experience, your circumstances do not have to change in order for your attitude to change. There is the world, and there is your perception of it. There are things that happen, and there is how you deal with them. It does take a heck of a lot of work and the right kind of support (therapy, family, spouse). You have to convince yourself that even though life is ridiculously hard, you can find a way to get through it.

In your example, a positive attitude toward driving might have led you to think "Changing lanes is hard, but I will learn to do it." With this attitude, you might have been able to find the solution that you explained sooner, or you might simply have been calmer behind the wheel even when it was hard. In any case, now that you know what you know, you can tell yourself: "I found changing lanes hard but there was a solution." Next time you find something hard, you might have different expectations; you might be calm because you believe you will find a workable solution.

"Everything can be taken from a man or a woman but one thing: the last of human freedoms to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way."– Viktor Frankl

You may find this article a bit superficial, but I think it's helpful: http://www.simplemindfulness.com/2012/0 ... z23C4HH6lS
J.



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10 Aug 2012, 10:45 pm

The problem is that most NTs do the things you describe entirely by instinct. They don't even realize they are doing it, and therefore can't describe to you what you need to know in order to do it.

They are talking about "attitude" because to them, you are asking them a question akin to "How do I continue breathing all day? What exactly do I have to do to keep taking in air?" It seems that you are asking questions about something that just happens automatically and their conclusion is that you are being oppositional for no reason.

You may need to explain it this way: "I don't learn the way you do - I don't have built-in instincts. I need to have all the steps you take for granted explained to me. Can you re-think how you do _________________________ and explain it to me as a series of steps, even the ones that seem automatic to you?"



cubedemon6073
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11 Aug 2012, 10:18 am

Quote:
I'm an NT with some autistic traits and am the mother of a daughter dx with HFA. This is how I see it, and I hope trying to see things this way helps you understand why people keep talking about attitude.

I see attitude as your way of looking at things that happen to you. You can have a positive attitude, expecting that you will find a solution to the challenges that arise and will survive life's tragedies, or you can have a negative attitude and believe that everything that happens is a catastrophe and you are powerless to change it. (And, of course, anything in between.) Believing you can change your circumstances, that what other people think about you does not define you, and that what happens is not as important as how you deal with it, helps put things in perspective and helps you to build a more positive attitude. In my experience, your circumstances do not have to change in order for your attitude to change. There is the world, and there is your perception of it. There are things that happen, and there is how you deal with them. It does take a heck of a lot of work and the right kind of support (therapy, family, spouse). You have to convince yourself that even though life is ridiculously hard, you can find a way to get through it.


The thing is though is I don't think like you. I am solution oriented and not feeling based oriented. In fact, I do not understand how you are able to do what you do. For me, the problem has to be solved first and then my attitude changes. It doesn't matter what my perceptions are. My perceptions could be skewed. There is an objective reality outside of myself. The better I understand objective reality and the parameters the more likely I can obtain a solution. If they have an answer to a question I still do not understand why they will not state the answer instead of focusing on my attitude.

I have a question. Which came first the chicken or the egg. Is it my negative attitude that causes my outcomes or do my outcomes cause my negative attitude? Is it that I'm supposed to project a positive attitude to navigate in society and I am wrong if I project a negative attitude or is it that society does not accept those with negative attitude and help them to solve their underlying issues or problems? If a person has an answer to a particular life's challenge why not just state in detail what you did to solve the problem at hand? Why not just state what one is supposed to do? If one comes up with a solution to a problem why not state your solution to others who need this solution. Why make others reinvent the wheel? Let's say a child is being taught to add. Would you show him how to add and why adding works or would you tell them to have a positive attitude without actually teaching them how to add.

For me, what you state comes across to me as though you're putting the cart before the horse. It is like your stating that the birth of a child causes the conception of a child. What I am telling you is this makes no logical sense to me and I can't wrap my mind around this.


Quote:
In your example, a positive attitude toward driving might have led you to think "Changing lanes is hard, but I will learn to do it." With this attitude, you might have been able to find the solution that you explained sooner, or you might simply have been calmer behind the wheel even when it was hard. In any case, now that you know what you know, you can tell yourself: "I found changing lanes hard but there was a solution." Next time you find something hard, you might have different expectations; you might be calm because you believe you will find a workable solution.

"Everything can be taken from a man or a woman but one thing: the last of human freedoms to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way."– Viktor Frankl

You may find this article a bit superficial, but I think it's helpful: http://www.simplemindfulness.com/2012/0 ... z23C4HH6lS


I do not understand the logic behind this whatsoever. In this case, I am endangering other people's lives. Why couldn't the other people suggest I go to a driving school? momsparky suggested that I buy a book online that will help me with the social pragmatic use of the english language. She gave me a solution oriented answer. It is upon me now to implement this solution within myself and I have cobbled together some money. I just simply have to get my butt to do it. In this case, the responsibility is mine to taking the necessary steps to procure this book.

What if all she did was told me to change my attitude? I would have no clue as to what the heck to do. I don't need to change my attitude first. I need solutions first and my attitude will change as a result. This is how I thought human biology truthfully worked. One has to remove or change the stimulus in order for the feelings and emotions to change and not the other way around. It makes no logical sense. [/quote]



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11 Aug 2012, 10:23 am

momsparky wrote:
The problem is that most NTs do the things you describe entirely by instinct. They don't even realize they are doing it, and therefore can't describe to you what you need to know in order to do it.

They are talking about "attitude" because to them, you are asking them a question akin to "How do I continue breathing all day? What exactly do I have to do to keep taking in air?" It seems that you are asking questions about something that just happens automatically and their conclusion is that you are being oppositional for no reason.

You may need to explain it this way: "I don't learn the way you do - I don't have built-in instincts. I need to have all the steps you take for granted explained to me. Can you re-think how you do _________________________ and explain it to me as a series of steps, even the ones that seem automatic to you?"


This is why I think you're awesome. You are solution oriented. You provide a solution. I may have to tweak it a bit but at least I have a starting base. I can venture forth from it and try different things and make customizations that fit me. Like I told postcards it is still up to me to buy the book or in general run with it. Is this an NT thing or an American thing? What do you think of what he says? http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Attitude_Fanatics.htm I think he would provide a solution as well.



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11 Aug 2012, 11:02 am

:D I think you're awesome, too. You just need to remember that you're speaking a different language than most people.

I think that the article has some truth to it, but I think more importantly this generally is about a misunderstanding. Those of us who grew up without the benefit of a diagnosis often thought our attitude was to blame, too (I know I did. And do.)

There's also truth to the idea that you will prevent yourself from succeeding if you don't have a positive attitude - but this is only a valid assertion when you are actually capable of succeeding in the way you are attempting to go about it.



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11 Aug 2012, 9:21 pm

I can relate to a lot of this, so thanks for starting this thread. I haven't discovered a pattern yet, but sometimes my reasoning is more logic-based and other times it's more feeling-based. I think the second one helps me "pretend" to be NT in daily life. It seems that the logic-based reasoning is what makes us confused when we look for solutions and other people just say "Change your attitude."

I also have trouble changing lanes, so thanks for sharing your solution on that!



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12 Aug 2012, 9:28 am

momsparky wrote:
:D I think you're awesome, too. You just need to remember that you're speaking a different language than most people.

I think that the article has some truth to it, but I think more importantly this generally is about a misunderstanding. Those of us who grew up without the benefit of a diagnosis often thought our attitude was to blame, too (I know I did. And do.)

There's also truth to the idea that you will prevent yourself from succeeding if you don't have a positive attitude - but this is only a valid assertion when you are actually capable of succeeding in the way you are attempting to go about it.


Yes, my thoughts do influence reality. I do believe this. A good chunk of population believe life is not fair. They believe this because they experienced it and could do nothing to change it. This experience and their conclusion they can do nothing about it leads to their belief. It is a chicken or the egg problem and a logical paradox. Belief causes outcome and outcome causes belief. Yes, a person's attitude can affect outcome.

My influence is only to certain extent. This is where I have problem. People believe this to the extreme. At best this is fallacious in nature and at worst dangerous. My switching lanes is an excellent example. What if I hurt myself or other people? Morningstar had major problems as well. I may have saved a potential life and other lives as well. Positivity is well founded but it has a place and it should not cross certain lines or boundaries. It has to stay in the realm of objective reality.

Right now it does. In my opinion a lot of people display cult-like behaviors with this and other things. http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cul ... guru_right

This is where I do share some responsibility. I should've refused to drive and been adament in this. In this case, I did not have the confidence to stand up and say no until I received specific correction on this.



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12 Aug 2012, 9:53 am

Right - but remember, the other people aren't totally wrong, it's just they are making the incorrect assumption that you are like them. The attitude thing actually works for many NTs, if they were put in the same situation as you, as they learn in a way that's much more connected to their emotional state than logic.

What you need is a way to communicate that you are different, and that if your difference is respected, you will learn faster and better.



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12 Aug 2012, 9:57 am

Quote:
I can relate to a lot of this, so thanks for starting this thread. I haven't discovered a pattern yet, but sometimes my reasoning is more logic-based and other times it's more feeling-based. I think the second one helps me "pretend" to be NT in daily life. It seems that the logic-based reasoning is what makes us confused when we look for solutions and other people just say "Change your attitude."


I agree with you on this. I believe we're making assumptions that may have some falseness to it. For one, anyone who is non-autistic is an NT and all NTs have a certain set of attributes. This may be true to a certain extent but each NT is different from each other within this. They have different personalities and beliefs. A good chunk of a group can share beliefs though. This is what makes a culture. I believe this major focus on attitude is mainly an American cultural thing. I do believe the extent it is taken to is fanatical and cultish in nature. http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Attitude_Fanatics.htm

If this man is correct and this is from his experiences there are other cultures who don't have this major belief in attitude in this extreme and polarized form. This is second hand so please take it with a grain of salt meaning be very skeptical. Like him, I believe it is an American thing. I am going to write another article that touches on the subject of responsibility and blame.

The thing is if those who need help are to get what they need I believe that certain beliefs have to be challenged and debunked. As long as these beliefs are in place in their extreme form they never will get help. I believe I have to challenge people's beliefs and values or the extremeness to them they are taking them to. I have to be like Socrates.

My belief is there has to be moderation and balance.

Quote:
I also have trouble changing lanes, so thanks for sharing your solution on that!


No problem, but I can't take credit because I never would've came up with this myself. It is actually an answer that is from the Department of Motor Vehicles. Mr. James Brock, my instructor, was the presenter of this. I give him and the DMV credit for this.



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12 Aug 2012, 12:02 pm

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Right - but remember, the other people aren't totally wrong, it's just they are making the incorrect assumption that you are like them. The attitude thing actually works for many NTs, if they were put in the same situation as you, as they learn in a way that's much more connected to their emotional state than logic.


I know, but this is just so difficult for me to fathom. It is just so alien to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt This man came up with the moral foundations theory. In it, he believes human beings did not naturally evolve to use reason to obtain truths. People go by their emotions and their morality. I believe there are exceptions to this rule and guess what we aspies-autistics are the exceptions or at least some aspies and maybe some NTs. If he did tests on us aspies I wonder what he would find.

Quote:
What you need is a way to communicate that you are different, and that if your difference is respected, you will learn faster and better.


I know and I believe the 1st step is to get that book you suggested.

momsparky, if you don't mind will you take a look at what I wrote here as well.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt206057.html