LexingtonDeville
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Age: 29
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Location: Blackburn, Lancashire, England
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 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:34 am Post subject: Metal Evolution appreciation thread |
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Yeah, it's an 11 part documentary series, but it was really interesting to hear from Sam Dunn how certain sub-genres of metal had evolved and stood the test of time. I particularly enjoyed the thrash metal and power metal episodes, and the shock rock instalment was quite eye-opening. But how grunge and nu-metal got in there is beyond me.....
Still, what are everyone's thoughts on the series? I personally enjoyed hearing how each sub-genre grew and got popular, and you'll be pleased to know that a "lost episode" is in the works, which profiles extreme metal - death metal, black metal and grindcore. Sam and the boys need the funding, so go to http://www.indiegogo.com/ExtremeMetal?c=home to donate.
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thewrll
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| Amazing series, you get his two movies about the metal subculture. |
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LexingtonDeville
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| thewrll wrote: | | Amazing series, you get his two movies about the metal subculture. |
Fingers crossed the "lost" episode gets the required funding and satisfies the death/black metal fans, i'm looking forward to seeing which bands Sam Dunn profiles.
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Chevand
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Joined: Jul 21, 2008
Posts: 576
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Evolution appreciation thread |
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| LexingtonDeville wrote: | | I particularly enjoyed the thrash metal and power metal episodes, and the shock rock instalment was quite eye-opening. But how grunge and nu-metal got in there is beyond me..... |
Dunn himself acknowledged in those particular episodes that he wasn't sure at first how they fit in relation to heavy metal. Ultimately, though, I think he came to the conclusion that there were strong enough ties between "traditional" heavy metal and those two subgenres to include them:
- Although grunge was at its core much more heavily connected to underground punk and alternative rock, it's also very apparent that the Seattle local bands were also greatly influenced by sludge metal bands like the Melvins. Also, when the topic of discussion is heavy metal, it's sort of difficult to ignore a band like Alice In Chains.
- As Dunn mentioned in the episode, nu metal was sort of a logical extension of groove metal bands like Pantera and Sepultura, and alternative metal bands like Faith No More (as well as cross-genre experimentation between Anthrax and Public Enemy). Whatever you may think about the genre, it has had an undeniable influence on heavy metal since the mid-90s. If there's going to be a discussion about the state of current heavy metal, bands like System of a Down and Disturbed have to be taken into account.
I give Dunn a lot of credit for examining heavy metal in a serious cultural and anthropological context. I think it's admirable how he set out to dispel the myths and stereotypes and show the genre for the amazing true breadth of its content. The first episode, where he explored the connections of heavy metal to classical music, blues, jazz, and rock 'n' roll of the 50s and early 60s, was particularly fascinating; the idea that there was a direct link between Mars, the Bringer of War from Holst's Planet Suite and the song "Black Sabbath" was particularly revelatory. My favorite episode of the 11, however, had to be the one on progressive metal-- I was a bit disappointed that no one in Tool agreed to be interviewed, but it was still really exciting to see bands like King Crimson, Yes, ELP, Rush, Dream Theater, and Tool get some much-deserved recognition for their contriubtions to music.
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Ganondox
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Age: 16
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Evolution appreciation thread |
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Where is this? I need to see it!
| Chevand wrote: | | LexingtonDeville wrote: | | I particularly enjoyed the thrash metal and power metal episodes, and the shock rock instalment was quite eye-opening. But how grunge and nu-metal got in there is beyond me..... |
Dunn himself acknowledged in those particular episodes that he wasn't sure at first how they fit in relation to heavy metal. Ultimately, though, I think he came to the conclusion that there were strong enough ties between "traditional" heavy metal and those two subgenres to include them:
- Although grunge was at its core much more heavily connected to underground punk and alternative rock, it's also very apparent that the Seattle local bands were also greatly influenced by sludge metal bands like the Melvins. Also, when the topic of discussion is heavy metal, it's sort of difficult to ignore a band like Alice In Chains.
- As Dunn mentioned in the episode, nu metal was sort of a logical extension of groove metal bands like Pantera and Sepultura, and alternative metal bands like Faith No More (as well as cross-genre experimentation between Anthrax and Public Enemy). Whatever you may think about the genre, it has had an undeniable influence on heavy metal since the mid-90s. If there's going to be a discussion about the state of current heavy metal, bands like System of a Down and Disturbed have to be taken into account.
I give Dunn a lot of credit for examining heavy metal in a serious cultural and anthropological context. I think it's admirable how he set out to dispel the myths and stereotypes and show the genre for the amazing true breadth of its content. The first episode, where he explored the connections of heavy metal to classical music, blues, jazz, and rock 'n' roll of the 50s and early 60s, was particularly fascinating; the idea that there was a direct link between Mars, the Bringer of War from Holst's Planet Suite and the song "Black Sabbath" was particularly revelatory. My favorite episode of the 11, however, had to be the one on progressive metal-- I was a bit disappointed that no one in Tool agreed to be interviewed, but it was still really exciting to see bands like King Crimson, Yes, ELP, Rush, Dream Theater, and Tool get some much-deserved recognition for their contriubtions to music. |
Even if Grunge and Nu Metal aren't really metal in the traditional sense it would be stupid to not include them on a discussion of the history of Metal.
1. They are both descended in part from metal.
2. They were both huge scenes.
3. They both influenced metal in the future.
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SanityTheorist
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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The recent use of singing and heavy vocals together is evolution I think.
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Ganondox
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| SanityTheorist wrote: | | The recent use of singing and heavy vocals together is evolution I think. |
Clean singing was in Metal long before screaming, I found that a lot of the old metal bands had cleaner vocals than a lot of the old Hard Rock bands, however the use of both screaming and clean vocals together is a metalcore thing, which is new.
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LexingtonDeville
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Age: 29
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Location: Blackburn, Lancashire, England
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Metal Evolution appreciation thread |
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| Chevand wrote: | | LexingtonDeville wrote: | | I particularly enjoyed the thrash metal and power metal episodes, and the shock rock instalment was quite eye-opening. But how grunge and nu-metal got in there is beyond me..... |
Dunn himself acknowledged in those particular episodes that he wasn't sure at first how they fit in relation to heavy metal. Ultimately, though, I think he came to the conclusion that there were strong enough ties between "traditional" heavy metal and those two subgenres to include them:
- Although grunge was at its core much more heavily connected to underground punk and alternative rock, it's also very apparent that the Seattle local bands were also greatly influenced by sludge metal bands like the Melvins. Also, when the topic of discussion is heavy metal, it's sort of difficult to ignore a band like Alice In Chains.
- As Dunn mentioned in the episode, nu metal was sort of a logical extension of groove metal bands like Pantera and Sepultura, and alternative metal bands like Faith No More (as well as cross-genre experimentation between Anthrax and Public Enemy). Whatever you may think about the genre, it has had an undeniable influence on heavy metal since the mid-90s. If there's going to be a discussion about the state of current heavy metal, bands like System of a Down and Disturbed have to be taken into account.
I give Dunn a lot of credit for examining heavy metal in a serious cultural and anthropological context. I think it's admirable how he set out to dispel the myths and stereotypes and show the genre for the amazing true breadth of its content. The first episode, where he explored the connections of heavy metal to classical music, blues, jazz, and rock 'n' roll of the 50s and early 60s, was particularly fascinating; the idea that there was a direct link between Mars, the Bringer of War from Holst's Planet Suite and the song "Black Sabbath" was particularly revelatory. My favorite episode of the 11, however, had to be the one on progressive metal-- I was a bit disappointed that no one in Tool agreed to be interviewed, but it was still really exciting to see bands like King Crimson, Yes, ELP, Rush, Dream Theater, and Tool get some much-deserved recognition for their contriubtions to music. |
The prog episode was the most underrated of the series, to hear that Genesis, King Crimson and Yes influenced the likes of Rush, Dream Theater and Queensryche was eye-opening.
But what really really annoyed me was Nickelback getting profiled, they don't even sound like a "post grunge" band.
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SanityTheorist
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Ganondox wrote: | | SanityTheorist wrote: | | The recent use of singing and heavy vocals together is evolution I think. |
Clean singing was in Metal long before screaming, I found that a lot of the old metal bands had cleaner vocals than a lot of the old Hard Rock bands, however the use of both screaming and clean vocals together is a metalcore thing, which is new. |
I still have no idea what "metalcore" is...and if you are referring to bands like Judas Priest, I don't like the super high pitched singing in metal. I like deep/medium growls with mid-lower range singing.
Most metal in the past just had a huge disconnect between the two styles so I couldn't enjoy it as much...there there's bands like Fear Factory that do the singing too slowly. Vocals seem trickiest to get right in a band.
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Chevand
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| SanityTheorist wrote: | | Ganondox wrote: | | SanityTheorist wrote: | | The recent use of singing and heavy vocals together is evolution I think. |
Clean singing was in Metal long before screaming, I found that a lot of the old metal bands had cleaner vocals than a lot of the old Hard Rock bands, however the use of both screaming and clean vocals together is a metalcore thing, which is new. |
I still have no idea what "metalcore" is...and if you are referring to bands like Judas Priest, I don't like the super high pitched singing in metal. I like deep/medium growls with mid-lower range singing. |
Metalcore is a fusion genre of heavy metal (mostly thrash and death metal) and hardcore punk. A lot of hardcore bands back in the 80s, like Suicidal Tendencies and Biohazard, were clearly influenced as much by thrash metal as by they were by punk. Eventually the fusion of the the two aesthetics developed into a genre in its own right. Vocals of metalcore bands tend to be more influenced by the shouted delivery of hardcore punk. Killswitch Engage, Bullet For My Valentine, and Atreyu are examples of more recent metalcore acts.
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LexingtonDeville
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| SanityTheorist wrote: | | Ganondox wrote: | | SanityTheorist wrote: | | The recent use of singing and heavy vocals together is evolution I think. |
Clean singing was in Metal long before screaming, I found that a lot of the old metal bands had cleaner vocals than a lot of the old Hard Rock bands, however the use of both screaming and clean vocals together is a metalcore thing, which is new. |
I still have no idea what "metalcore" is...and if you are referring to bands like Judas Priest, I don't like the super high pitched singing in metal. I like deep/medium growls with mid-lower range singing.
Most metal in the past just had a huge disconnect between the two styles so I couldn't enjoy it as much...there there's bands like Fear Factory that do the singing too slowly. Vocals seem trickiest to get right in a band. |
All the incoherent shouting from most core bands like Atreyu and BFMV is lame. All they're doing is trying to emulate Tomas Lindberg of At the Gates, but fall way short of the mark. Why does it matter of the likes of Bruce Dickinson, Rob Halford and King Diamond have high-pitched vocals, it's still metal to me.
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SanityTheorist
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Lexington Deville, I fail to see any issue with Bullet for My Valentine's vocals. Not my favorite band but nothing wrong with them whatsoever....although fever was disappointing. Gotta at least give their guitarists credit, some crazy fast riffs they play.
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Gravechylde
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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I just finished watching these on the vh1 site. I think the first episode, the thrash episode, and the power metal episode were good. The NWOBHM episode wasn't available. The 2 "early metal" episode kinda confused me, it seemed like at some points he was saying that they were metal, and at other points he was saying they were not metal. I skipped the nu-metal, grunge and shock rock episodes. I saw the beginning of the grunge one where he said "I couldn't figure how they fit into metal." That's because they don't! Yes, there are shared influences between metal and grunge, but those bands are not metal, and the same thing applies to nu-metal.
Is there a place online where I can see his whole chart?
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thewrll
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| If you want to see the metal headbanger chart go to wikipedia and search for metal a headbangers journey. |
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Gravechylde
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:04 am Post subject: |
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That's a different one, he added a lot of new categories to the one that was shown in this series.
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