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meems
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11 Dec 2012, 5:49 am

I have spent most of my adult life and the later part of adolescence feeling like I was unable to make connections with most other females, or at least no healthy, positive connections. I had internalized the sexist messages bombarding me from as far back as I remember, and I accepted a lot of it and then projected it onto other people in my life.

I would say I didn't get along with girls because of things like:
- they're catty, passive aggressive, petty etc.:
- they were airheads, didn't read or have intellectual depth.
- they were only interested in males and makeup, painting their faces like clowns(simultaneously judging their appearance and the value they place on appearance)
- we don't have similar interests, I would say I never met other girls who were into interests of mine that I considered masculine.(thus normal and good)
- really braggy, vapid, dead behind the eyes OR
- controlling, manipulative, soulless, heartless b***h.

That list and this post as a whole probably isn't very clear or easy to understand, but then, I'm not 100% sure what I mean to ask.

Most statements listed above can be made easy to justify for me by looking at anecdotal evidence from my own life and deciding I've known enough women who've done x and y to fairly apply that to most women. In reality none of those statements are accurate, and a lot of it is reflective of my intense self-loathing. I try to be aware of it even if it's uncomfortable and sometimes I feel really abnormal in a negative way for thinking so much about this. Trying to look at a person without somehow seeing first an object rather than an individual person can be difficult, but it's important.

Thing is, I don't even know how to have a conversation about it, how to talk about it with people in similar situations or people who can relate. Sometimes, depending on who I am talking to I feel like it's an unwelcome topic but I don't feel like I can accept that.

And I guess I am hoping for input, advice, insight, a conversation. Has anyone else felt this way?


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11 Dec 2012, 7:13 am

Hi Meems,
One of my favourite characters in Terry Pratchet's Discworld is Susan, the granddaughter of Death. What I like about her is that she has the ability to see what is REALLY there instead of what most people see, which is what they believe is there.

Write soon, gotta get off this machine.

Okay back. Anyway, this fictional character I'm bringing up is not only an awesome model of womanhood, but would never get taken in by a stereotype.

About that list of characteristics - well, I know some women who are like that. And some men who are like that. And these people also have other characteristics which redeem them.

You're to be congratulated on not trying to emulate these characteristics that you list here. Doesn't mean that you're not feminine, or that there are only good or bad people in this world. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad in people.



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11 Dec 2012, 8:30 am

meems, these are wonderful, salient observations about yourself. Please don't be too hard on yourself. Like you, I think we (all women) are bombarded with these messages, and we have the added burden that it works to alienate us from each other and to seek power through misguided channels.

I think you're on the right track because you can see this. And second poster, excellent analogy to Susan in Discworld!



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11 Dec 2012, 10:22 am

I'm a female and to be honest, I have a similar mental list to complain about other females. They can be very chatty and shallow. The truth is only some of them are that bad. It's just that we tend to overgeneralize negative opinions.


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11 Dec 2012, 10:45 am

Some women always seem to me to have an underlying catty one-upmanship going on with each other. Whether it's to have the spotlight on them, vying for male attention, or to be the most informed on the latest gossip--that seems to be the basis of a lot of their interactions. They tend to be the quickest to badmouth each other, as soon as someone walks away. This is probably something more prevalent in a younger crowd, but I've seen it in older women on occasion. Maybe it has something to do with a social "pecking order", and serves some function in that regard but it has always raised my bile. I just withdraw and choose not to be involved in that.



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11 Dec 2012, 10:57 am

-_- why do some of these words look so familiar.

Alright, meems I get your point that you feel as if any woman who feels this way is internalizing misogyny. I'd like to disagree. In my experience, women do tend to group up and have this weird hierarchy - not all women, but some. This is after a life of being unaccepted with these women and probably some traumatic experiences. It's worse if you are an aspie woman - you're expected to have social skills and are a subject of some of this passive-aggressive form of bullying sometimes. Also, it's not just a message of society that women tend to express anger through passive aggressiveness and men through physical violence. It's a scientific fact.

Okay I get your point that we need to look at women as individuals, that is true. But what is wrong with making friends with similar interests. Aspie men tend to do it, why is it wrong if you are an aspie woman and looking for these kinds of friendships? No one is saying that other women with different interests are airheads and don't have intellectual depth. What if you get along with both but have a preference for those with similar interests? I don't think this issue is as clear-cut as you are making it - any woman who feels this way is expressing internalized misogyny? Isn't that a misogynistic statement in itself?

Anyways, that's just my two cents. If you don't want to hear it next time, don't misconstrue my words.



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11 Dec 2012, 3:21 pm

deltafunction wrote:
-_- why do some of these words look so familiar.

Alright, meems I get your point that you feel as if any woman who feels this way is internalizing misogyny. I'd like to disagree. In my experience, women do tend to group up and have this weird hierarchy - not all women, but some. This is after a life of being unaccepted with these women and probably some traumatic experiences. It's worse if you are an aspie woman - you're expected to have social skills and are a subject of some of this passive-aggressive form of bullying sometimes. Also, it's not just a message of society that women tend to express anger through passive aggressiveness and men through physical violence. It's a scientific fact.

Okay I get your point that we need to look at women as individuals, that is true. But what is wrong with making friends with similar interests. Aspie men tend to do it, why is it wrong if you are an aspie woman and looking for these kinds of friendships? No one is saying that other women with different interests are airheads and don't have intellectual depth. What if you get along with both but have a preference for those with similar interests? I don't think this issue is as clear-cut as you are making it - any woman who feels this way is expressing internalized misogyny? Isn't that a misogynistic statement in itself?

Anyways, that's just my two cents. If you don't want to hear it next time, don't misconstrue my words.


I don't have time to respond to this in full, but I wanted to let you know that my initial post was about me and the generalizations I make or have made about other women. It's not meant to be a generalization in and of itself.

I don't think I've misconstrued your words, but rather that you have misconstrued mine. Your two cents is more than welcome, and the last thing I want to do is attack anyone for their input; I'm confronting my own flawed belief system.

I will respond more and to other posts as soon as I can.


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11 Dec 2012, 4:20 pm

rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
I'm a female and to be honest, I have a similar mental list to complain about other females. They can be very chatty and shallow. The truth is only some of them are that bad. It's just that we tend to overgeneralize negative opinions.


pretty much. Part of the problem where we get these thoughts is that those women who do fit those negative criteria are often the ones we see everywhere. Because they stand out from normal, they are easier to spot. So we see them more often, and thus paint a picture that all people have to be this way. When in reality its a very small number of those we see.

And this applies to a lot more than just this subject, it can be taken to things race, sexual orientation, religion, and even lifestyles like nerds, jocks, goths, etc.



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11 Dec 2012, 5:33 pm

Sarah81 wrote:
Hi Meems,
One of my favourite characters in Terry Pratchet's Discworld is Susan, the granddaughter of Death. What I like about her is that she has the ability to see what is REALLY there instead of what most people see, which is what they believe is there.

Write soon, gotta get off this machine.

Okay back. Anyway, this fictional character I'm bringing up is not only an awesome model of womanhood, but would never get taken in by a stereotype.

About that list of characteristics - well, I know some women who are like that. And some men who are like that. And these people also have other characteristics which redeem them.

You're to be congratulated on not trying to emulate these characteristics that you list here. Doesn't mean that you're not feminine, or that there are only good or bad people in this world. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad in people.


That sounds interesting, next time I go to the library I will look into it. Oddly enough my nickname as a kid was meems, no particular spelling, from the Hebrew letter mim/mem(prounounced like meem or meme) which in the original tarot, represented DEATH because it was the thirteenth letter in the Hebrew alphabet. So that granddaughter of death thing is really intriguing for multiple reasons.

The list of characteristics is definitely somewhat based in reality, gender does not limit anyone's ability to be wonderful or terrible, but I have used stereotypes of women(that are not applicable to the gender as a whole) as excuses to avoid confronting the reality of myself and other women and why I loathed all of these things. I don't want to rate people on a scale from good to bad though, I just want to get to a point where I don't have to constantly remind myself to discard stereotypes. I feel like such an as*hole that I have to do that in the first place. It's not possible to be constantly acutely aware of possible prejudices I have toward people, so reminding myself constantly is necessary. I do wonder if I'll ever get to a point where it's second nature to give people a chance to make an impression without having expectations of what that impression will be(thereby skewing it from the start) rather than second nature to see all of these stereotypes and apply them to an object. As if I see people's essence before I really see them, and that can't possibly be accurate.

Thank you for the positive and encouraging response.


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11 Dec 2012, 5:33 pm

mv wrote:
meems, these are wonderful, salient observations about yourself. Please don't be too hard on yourself. Like you, I think we (all women) are bombarded with these messages, and we have the added burden that it works to alienate us from each other and to seek power through misguided channels.

I think you're on the right track because you can see this. And second poster, excellent analogy to Susan in Discworld!


Thank you, your post made me smile. Very reassuring. :)


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11 Dec 2012, 5:48 pm

rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
I'm a female and to be honest, I have a similar mental list to complain about other females. They can be very chatty and shallow. The truth is only some of them are that bad. It's just that we tend to overgeneralize negative opinions.


I agree, I think, it does exist and it being a negative experience can stand out more than positive experiences. I'd like to be able to determine whether or not someone's behavior really is bothering me or if it's just me projecting these things onto other people.
-----

Honestly I do it to men as well, they don't escape misogyny. I don't know how many times I've had male friends who have to hide ear piercings or cut most of their(long) hair off to obtain/maintain their job. I don't challenge the right of any employer to dictate a dress code to their employees, but why are things perceived as feminine on males described as "unprofessional" etc. Earrings and long hair on an otherwise clean, tame appearance does not differ much from females with long hair and earrings. Why is a man wearing makeup seen as obscene? Fingernail polish? These things are feminine and thus if a man adds these things to his appearance, he's removing some of his value as a person, as a male.

There were boys playing in my neighborhood recently and I ended up calling the school in this district and giving the address of the boy being bullied... but there were a few boys refusing to play with the victim of the bully, who continued to follow along, silently, at a distance, as they chanted that he was a girl and he wasn't allowed to talk and he had a p*ssy and he was wearing panties et cetera et cetera. This boy they were picking on is sometimes outside at four and five a.m. and it coincides with me walking my dog. He seems trusting, he dances out there in his driveway while everyone is asleep. He's like TWELVE and he is already hiding his feminine activities, such as dancing like... kind of like that music video for "Single Ladies" by Beyonce.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m1EFMoRFvY[/youtube]

I know it's anecdotal, but it's clear why they were making fun of him and I can see already that he's holding it all back and trying to be himself in private, and when it bleeds over into his social life, it bites him in the ass because it's WRONG to be feminine.

I know, twelve year olds are jerks, middle school is hell, and everyone gets picked on, but this is stuff that used to seem NORMAL to me because it's such a frequent occurrence in my life and I've realized growing up that this attitude is prevalent throughout the globe and it's bad for ALL of us.


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11 Dec 2012, 6:06 pm

MjrMajorMajor wrote:
Some women always seem to me to have an underlying catty one-upmanship going on with each other. Whether it's to have the spotlight on them, vying for male attention, or to be the most informed on the latest gossip--that seems to be the basis of a lot of their interactions. They tend to be the quickest to badmouth each other, as soon as someone walks away. This is probably something more prevalent in a younger crowd, but I've seen it in older women on occasion. Maybe it has something to do with a social "pecking order", and serves some function in that regard but it has always raised my bile. I just withdraw and choose not to be involved in that.


I don't mean to imply it doesn't happen, or doesn't exist, it just can't be applied to all women and it's messed up that I used that to create a barrier between myself and other females.

That behavior though, I think that's reflective of possible internalized misogyny, the way a lot of women hate each other and tear each other down. That's part of this, at least for me, growing up in the states it's hard to escape being inundated with constant messages that pretty much come down to being sexism/misogyny, leading to hating myself and hating others.

I do know it happens and it hurts both men and women but I think my goal isn't to decide whether or not it's ever justified to apply a label to someone in my head, but rather to get to know people before I feel like I have informed opinions of them.


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11 Dec 2012, 6:17 pm

deltafunction wrote:
-_- why do some of these words look so familiar.

Alright, meems I get your point that you feel as if any woman who feels this way is internalizing misogyny. I'd like to disagree. In my experience, women do tend to group up and have this weird hierarchy - not all women, but some. This is after a life of being unaccepted with these women and probably some traumatic experiences. It's worse if you are an aspie woman - you're expected to have social skills and are a subject of some of this passive-aggressive form of bullying sometimes. Also, it's not just a message of society that women tend to express anger through passive aggressiveness and men through physical violence. It's a scientific fact.

Okay I get your point that we need to look at women as individuals, that is true. But what is wrong with making friends with similar interests. Aspie men tend to do it, why is it wrong if you are an aspie woman and looking for these kinds of friendships? No one is saying that other women with different interests are airheads and don't have intellectual depth. What if you get along with both but have a preference for those with similar interests? I don't think this issue is as clear-cut as you are making it - any woman who feels this way is expressing internalized misogyny? Isn't that a misogynistic statement in itself?

Anyways, that's just my two cents. If you don't want to hear it next time, don't misconstrue my words.


I feel that behavior you described is often internalized misogyny. We're taught to hate each other and hate ourselves and I think it manifests in a lot of ways, there are endless examples.

When I said passive aggressive, I believe I grouped it with catty and petty, and an et cetera for good measure. I don't think there is any scientific proof that this label applied to women prior to getting to know them is a valid excuse to avoid getting to know them. It's possible other people have negative traits I might encounter, and positive, and neutral, some I might never see, but I'm talking about me using stereotypes as excuses for avoiding friendships with females.

It's FAR from a clear cut issue with many people, yes, but with me, those were some clear cut examples of excuses I use, again that post was about my internalized misogyny, not an analysis of people I don't know(I am vaguely familiar with your username but I don't know that we've ever corresponded on WP, if we have it has slipped my memory) and I didn't post it to criticize your preference for friendships with people who have similar interests to you, and I'm not calling you a misogynist. If something I said has struck a nerve with you, please take a step back and consider why that is before assuming it's an attack on you.

My post really really really wasn't about you, I swear. If I ever have a problem with something you've said or posted, I wouldn't make a thread indirectly addressing it, I would contact you via PM.

I think I either am being extremely unclear and my writing doesn't make much sense, or you really misunderstood my post.


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11 Dec 2012, 6:34 pm

MXH wrote:
rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
I'm a female and to be honest, I have a similar mental list to complain about other females. They can be very chatty and shallow. The truth is only some of them are that bad. It's just that we tend to overgeneralize negative opinions.


pretty much. Part of the problem where we get these thoughts is that those women who do fit those negative criteria are often the ones we see everywhere. Because they stand out from normal, they are easier to spot. So we see them more often, and thus paint a picture that all people have to be this way. When in reality its a very small number of those we see.

And this applies to a lot more than just this subject, it can be taken to things race, sexual orientation, religion, and even lifestyles like nerds, jocks, goths, etc.


I think I've addressed it at a much younger age when it comes to prejudices about ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. I still have automatically assume a lot of things about people of certain religions. I don't even know how I'm going to approach that monster of exiasdialsjdasd aod it's horrifying to consider.

But yes, and I see some of that behavior itself as internalized misogyny. Hate other women, hate them if they are better or lesser than you by arbitrary standards of beauty and blah blah blah other women are your competition, tear them down to build yourself up, all the while I just crumble inside when I hate other people. It's cognitive dissonance, it eats me alive until I sit down and work through it in my mind to figure out what I really think and what I really believe is the truth, or is right or wrong. I've never been able to escape this thought process that keeps me brainstorming for hours in search of what lines up best with reality, constantly telling myself I'm wrong as ever and my answer barely scratches the surface of the truth.

I need to learn to control this to some extent, not to see the object, but to discover the person. That obviously can't happen every time I encounter a human being, but I do need to learn how to discard this hatred. I know a lot of us do it and it's easy to get dragged into, but I feel like to move forward in my life from this point I mainly have to learn to stop hating myself. To get there, I have to stop hating women as a group, myself as part of that group. I don't directly hate women or dislike them, but it's deeply ingrained. I feel like I have to unlearn something so basic about my outlook... as if to learn to no longer blink. It does seem almost involuntary.

And I realize I have a lot of prejudices against men as well, but I don't see that as the same problem, because those things aren't also applied to myself, and I have to lift this idea of my gender off of me and push it out of my life before I can begin to work on trying not to see all men as potential predators. Even that I find myself blaming myself for, if I'm vulnerable, then I'm to blame, if I piss this guy off, then I'm to blame. It's like misogyny is the glue that holds all of my prejudices together.


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12 Dec 2012, 12:19 am

What I see in your list is simple: you don't respect femininity because you see it as something that is bad and weak. Thus you see those who are more naturally inclined to be feminine, and much of the behaviors that go along with it - especially the negatives ones - in that light too.

Masculinity or femininity is not bad. Neither are bad. Both have positive and negative aspects like anything else. Most people, tend to have or operate more than one than in the other, some operate in both, others switch between, and some operate in neither. None of that is either inherently good or bad, it's simply how you choose to use it.

Sometimes the things we hate the most in ourselves, the things we consider to be weak, are actually the things that take the most strength - and being vulnerable, open, giving, displaying our emotions freely does take a lot of strength. How better to make yourself feel better when you are too scared to do any of that or think you don't have the strength to do that than by hating those who display those traits or considering those who do have them to be weak or foolish?

By nor recongising or respecting these things, many times one becomes little better than those who one fights against.


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12 Dec 2012, 3:40 pm

Kjas wrote:
What I see in your list is simple: you don't respect femininity because you see it as something that is bad and weak. Thus you see those who are more naturally inclined to be feminine, and much of the behaviors that go along with it - especially the negatives ones - in that light too.

Masculinity or femininity is not bad. Neither are bad. Both have positive and negative aspects like anything else. Most people, tend to have or operate more than one than in the other, some operate in both, others switch between, and some operate in neither. None of that is either inherently good or bad, it's simply how you choose to use it.

Sometimes the things we hate the most in ourselves, the things we consider to be weak, are actually the things that take the most strength - and being vulnerable, open, giving, displaying our emotions freely does take a lot of strength. How better to make yourself feel better when you are too scared to do any of that or think you don't have the strength to do that than by hating those who display those traits or considering those who do have them to be weak or foolish?

By nor recongising or respecting these things, many times one becomes little better than those who one fights against.


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