NT behavior motivated more by social hierarchy?

Page 1 of 1 [ 12 posts ] 

Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 300
Location: Little Rock, AR

23 Apr 2013, 1:16 am

so I have a theory. I think my autistic behavior is motivated by a need for structure and correctness (I do not mean I am always right). it also seems to me that most NT behavior is instead motivated by a subconscious awareness of their place within a social hierarchy and the need to maintain it or improve it.

this observation was prompted because:

Quote:
I just saw an intelligent friend respond to racism on twitter not by criticizing the racism, but by denigrating the woman expressing it for having bad teeth(?).

this behavior makes no sense, given that my friend normally believes that criticizing someone for their physical appearance is morally wrong. they say it's wrong because it's shallow and makes the mistake of attaching personal worth to inconsequential physical features rather than character, etc.

however, if we're instead operating in a worldview in which what someone says is given weight not based on whether or not it's correct, but based on how important the person saying it is, then my friend's behavior makes sense. in this context it makes sense to try to discredit racism by lowering the relative social status of the person expressing it. by making unflattering observations about the racist's physical appearance, my friend was diminishing the racist's social status.

furthermore this bears the implication that racism was not wrong because it was in logical conflict with a set of correct moral principles, but that it was wrong because it gave offense to my friend. things are offensive in this framework when they threaten an individual's social standing, either by devaluing them as a person directly, or by challenging an assumption shared by a group. since it's important to individuals to be identified with the group that meets their needs, they will attack any challenge to arbitrary group norms.

in this framework being socially awkward, out of style, or uncool result in worse treatment than being immoral, so long as the immoral behavior isn't hurting the people who are responding to you. if the behavior (moral or immoral) is a threat to you or to your relationship with the people you need things from, it's reacted to with disgust. I think most of us had experiences (in high school especially) that show the majority of people behave this way. adults follow more complicated rules which tend to have more of an appearance of logic/morality.

if we're operating in this framework, it also makes sense that arguments are primarily dominance displays in which one person shows they have bigger brain-muscles than another by winning the debate...NOT attempts to resolve logical discrepancies purely for the sake of being correct.


maybe I'm fooling myself here, but it seems that autistic folks often have a tendency to think less like high school cliques and more like computers. I need an almost mathematical structure to my behavior and to the behavior of others. if there's an "error" in the input, then I can't work around it until it's resolved (sensory overload and meltdowns are like a computer "freezing up"), and I tend to argue with people I like, am attracted to, and who I agree with much more often than NT people I know, because thinking that isn't as structured (and I would say logical) as mine tends to bother me in the same way an off-key musical note bothers most people.

so my conclusion:

people act in ways that make them as comfortable as possible. autistic people lack the inborn, instinctual skill to navigate social hierarchy, so our thoughts and behaviors are motivated less by our need for social comfort and more by our need for the comfort of structure/familiarity. most of the ways NTs seem illogical or confusing to aspies are in fact behaviors motivated subconscious by awareness of day-to-day social politics that we don't usually have.

thoughts?


_________________
KADI score: 114/130
Your Aspie score: 139 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 54 of 200
Conversion Disorder, General/Social Anxiety Disorder, Major Depression


Moondust
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 May 2012
Age: 62
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,558

23 Apr 2013, 1:38 am

That's what I say in almost all my posts.


_________________
There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats - Albert Schweitzer


Troy_Guther
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 263
Location: Deep in the Desert

23 Apr 2013, 1:43 am

Welcome to the NT world, where WHO says it is just as important, if not more important, than what is actually being said. Here's an example. From a conservative standpoint, when a Republican calls for a tax increase, it's because we all have to make sacrifices. When a Democrat calls for a tax increase, it's because they're evil socialists who want to destroy America.

See the difference? :wink:



theshawngorton
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 204
Location: Vermont

23 Apr 2013, 6:05 am

Troy_Guther wrote:
Welcome to the NT world, where WHO says it is just as important, if not more important, than what is actually being said. Here's an example. From a conservative standpoint, when a Republican calls for a tax increase, it's because we all have to make sacrifices. When a Democrat calls for a tax increase, it's because they're evil socialists who want to destroy America.

See the difference? :wink:


This is the most disgusting thing I've ever read about the two parties. Why is it so important who says it? Isn't the message more important?



hanyo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Sep 2011
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,302

23 Apr 2013, 6:14 am

Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2 wrote:
it also seems to me that most NT behavior is instead motivated by a subconscious awareness of their place within a social hierarchy and the need to maintain it or improve it.


I never really understood this and still don't. Pretty much my whole life I've either been at the bottom of the social hierarchy or completely oblivious and/or uncaring about it.



theshawngorton
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 204
Location: Vermont

23 Apr 2013, 6:16 am

I'm THIS close to setting fire to this "NT Social Hierarchy" thing you guys keep on talking about. It's stupid.



ghoti
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 May 2012
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,596

23 Apr 2013, 7:29 am

A reason they are so enthralled by celebrities and take anything they say or do to heart, including paid endorsements?



neilson_wheels
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Mar 2013
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,404
Location: London, Capital of the Un-United Kingdom

23 Apr 2013, 7:29 am

Well if someone can be judged on their race then a person can also be judged on their teeth.

I see that as coming down to the same level rather than showing bigger brain muscles.

Social hierarchy is an unpleasant fact of life, but I think it's important to recognise that there is an spectrum of behaviours.
There are some NT type people who don't operate with such a restrictive framework.



leejosepho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock

23 Apr 2013, 7:48 am

Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2 wrote:
so my conclusion:

people act in ways that make them as comfortable as possible. autistic people lack the inborn, instinctual skill to navigate social hierarchy, so our thoughts and behaviors are motivated less by our need for social comfort and more by our need for the comfort of structure/familiarity. most of the ways NTs seem illogical or confusing to aspies are in fact behaviors motivated subconscious by awareness of day-to-day social politics that we don't usually have.

thoughts?

I believe my pursuit of "comfort of structure/familiarity" has a definite relationship to my pursuits of satisfactions of social instincts (with or without any particular hierarchy considered other than in a setting such as the workplace), but confusion and troubles come between myself and so-called "normies" (NT people) when they seem to me to run far more on random feelings than reasonable logic. I love your computer analogy, and that is how I operate. But where I am "concrete-absolute" (digital) in my thought processes, random-abstract (Jell-O) thinkers completely baffle, frustrate and even anger me (at least at times).


_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================


Anomiel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,023

23 Apr 2013, 8:48 am

Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2 wrote:
[...]
maybe I'm fooling myself here, but it seems that autistic folks often have a tendency to think less like high school cliques and more like computers.


Reminds me of this song
http://open.spotify.com/track/3LTdFIvbmOQm6XY7XDfq5e (couldn't find it on youtube)
Or am I being random now? :)

Brilliantly put, the whole post. It baffles me those that can't see the structures of society if they are pointed out to them, the only question is if you like them or not. Many NTs don't either though and some autistic folks do and I guess we're all responsible for creating (and destroying) norms in the first place (with varying degrees of responsibility depending on how much social leverage/privilege we have). Though many NTs do not participate willingly but the social punishment is too big to step out of it and then there are autistics who want nothing more than to be able to play social games.



Ca2MgFe5Si8O22OH2
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 300
Location: Little Rock, AR

24 Apr 2013, 2:04 am

theshawngorton wrote:
I'm THIS close to setting fire to this "NT Social Hierarchy" thing you guys keep on talking about. It's stupid.
do you mean you object to us talking about it/thinking it exists or that you object to it existing?
ghoti wrote:
A reason they are so enthralled by celebrities and take anything they say or do to heart, including paid endorsements?
yep, that would make sense.
neilson_wheels wrote:
Well if someone can be judged on their race then a person can also be judged on their teeth.

I see that as coming down to the same level rather than showing bigger brain muscles.

Social hierarchy is an unpleasant fact of life, but I think it's important to recognise that there is an spectrum of behaviours.
There are some NT type people who don't operate with such a restrictive framework.
I agree. I don't think insulting the person had anything to do with "bigger brain muscles", just that that is how many NT folks seem to see argument in general (and why I get into a lot of trouble because I argue a lot...my old university had an online forum for their honors program and I debated on there all the time with people I then had to interact with in real life, and I ended up crying often...ugh) and yes, I definitely recognize that not all NTs do this 100% of the time (and that many folks on the spectrum do this to some degree too), but as a general characteristic rather than a set rule I think it makes sense.

Anomiel wrote:
Brilliantly put, the whole post. It baffles me those that can't see the structures of society if they are pointed out to them, the only question is if you like them or not. Many NTs don't either though and some autistic folks do and I guess we're all responsible for creating (and destroying) norms in the first place (with varying degrees of responsibility depending on how much social leverage/privilege we have). Though many NTs do not participate willingly but the social punishment is too big to step out of it and then there are autistics who want nothing more than to be able to play social games.
thank you =) I agree with all of this. (and sorry I couldn't get the song to load, haha)


_________________
KADI score: 114/130
Your Aspie score: 139 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 54 of 200
Conversion Disorder, General/Social Anxiety Disorder, Major Depression


Troy_Guther
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 263
Location: Deep in the Desert

24 Apr 2013, 4:10 pm

theshawngorton wrote:
Troy_Guther wrote:
Welcome to the NT world, where WHO says it is just as important, if not more important, than what is actually being said. Here's an example. From a conservative standpoint, when a Republican calls for a tax increase, it's because we all have to make sacrifices. When a Democrat calls for a tax increase, it's because they're evil socialists who want to destroy America.

See the difference? :wink:


This is the most disgusting thing I've ever read about the two parties. Why is it so important who says it? Isn't the message more important?


Of course the message is more important! But, there are advantages to they way NT's do it. For example, if we can convince ourselves that anyone who disagrees with us or belongs to a different clan is evil/ignorant/stupid/racist/insane, we don't ever have to listen to anything they have to say, let alone consider that they may be right. It also means that we never have to seriously question what we stand for. You'd be surprised how many people greatly value those things.