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qawer
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:09 am    Post subject: Good social skills are about being a good liar/pretender Reply with quote

Studying how those with good social skills go about it, I see they are basically being good a putting on a facade. Being good liars/pretenders. Constantly convincing other people they are in it for their best interest, when in fact they are only in it for their own best interest, not really caring that much about others. Asperger people prefer the truth and are in general bad liars. That results in social skill deficits.



How much truth do you find there is to this observation?
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slapdash
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: Good social skills are about being a good liar/pretender Reply with quote

qawer wrote:
Studying how those with good social skills go about it, I see they are basically being good a putting on a facade. Being good liars/pretenders. Constantly convincing other people they are in it for their best interest, when in fact they are only in it for their own best interest, not really caring that much about others. Asperger people prefer the truth and are in general bad liars. That results in social skill deficits.



How much truth do you find there is to this observation?


This sounds about right to me. I would not call it lying or pretending however. I look at it like being in a foreign country: there are things that you need to do and say to fit in and get by. Perhaps that's learning some of the language, customs, or just ways of doing things. If your aspergian then you know what I am talking about.

To the extend that you can act like a person in that country is the often extent that you'll probably be able to get ahead. I don't think it's inherently lying or dishonest and I think many NT people do this to a lessor degree.
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Adamantium
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not much.

Not because it's completely wrong, but because it misses the point.

The idea of being polte can be seen as ritualized lying, and being polite certainly does involve saying things that are not true. For example, polite speech requires that you ask for people's "pardon" when you may not give a damn what they think. You say "Excuse me" when you mean "get out of my way" or "STFU" --but these conventional utterances were arrived at over a long time to make it possible for people to live and work together without killing each other.

In the same way, all sorts of small talk exists to define and reinforce relationships. People are not lying, they are just focusing on something else, something that some of us don't perceive very well. Just because we are not sensitive to it, doesn't mean it isn't there. It seems unfair that we are shut out of it, but that's the way it is.

It's not lying, it's communicating indirectly.

Being good at putting on a facade is absolutely part of it.

It's what other kids are learning in the early grades and why the social communication deficits of Aspergers start to become evident for many in school interactions at that age.
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BTDT
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another perspective--normal communication isn't as exact as Aspies believe or would like to think.

I think there is a lot of wasted effort in trying to make it so.
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Thelibrarian
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is definitely the case that in politics (which is properly defined as getting what you want from those over whom you have no power) appearances trump reality all day long. In political situations, the "truth" is the lie upon which most can agree.
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dortman1099
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree with Slapdash. It's not something you should condemn as morally wrong. And our normal peers are not bad for, I'm not really comfortable with the word lying. They just realize the advantages of it more quickly than most of us do.

For example, it is good for you if everyone around you tells the truth. Then you know where everyone else stands on some issue or another. But you or one of your peers can benefit from not telling the truth. Everyone will assume that you are telling the truth, but you are not.

But there are upsides to aspie honesty as well. If everyone does not tell the truth then things start to fall apart. In that situation, our honesty can actually be refreshing and a better strategy than not telling the truth.
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Tressillian
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adamantium wrote:
Not much.

Not because it's completely wrong, but because it misses the point.

The idea of being polte can be seen as ritualized lying, and being polite certainly does involve saying things that are not true. For example, polite speech requires that you ask for people's "pardon" when you may not give a damn what they think. You say "Excuse me" when you mean "get out of my way" or "STFU" --but these conventional utterances were arrived at over a long time to make it possible for people to live and work together without killing each other.

In the same way, all sorts of small talk exists to define and reinforce relationships. People are not lying, they are just focusing on something else, something that some of us don't perceive very well. Just because we are not sensitive to it, doesn't mean it isn't there. It seems unfair that we are shut out of it, but that's the way it is.

It's not lying, it's communicating indirectly.

Being good at putting on a facade is absolutely part of it.

It's what other kids are learning in the early grades and why the social communication deficits of Aspergers start to become evident for many in school interactions at that age.


Absolutely
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Moondust
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Good social skills are about being a good liar/pretender Reply with quote

qawer wrote:
How much truth do you find there is to this observation?


50%. Because the other 50% is knowing WHAT to lie, WHO to lie to, WHEN to lie and HOW to lie. If you're not good at knowing this, better not try lying.
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b9
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i just do not know.
i ascribe everyone with a plain and indiscriminate set of feebly imagined attributes as average people.
yee gads.
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Popsicle
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As in the other topic I will reply that a good number of people actually do care about others, and even put others before their own interests.
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SG78
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Good social skills are about being a good liar/pretender Reply with quote

qawer wrote:
Studying how those with good social skills go about it, I see they are basically being good a putting on a facade. Being good liars/pretenders. Constantly convincing other people they are in it for their best interest, when in fact they are only in it for their own best interest, not really caring that much about others. Asperger people prefer the truth and are in general bad liars. That results in social skill deficits.



How much truth do you find there is to this observation?


I find some truth in it, although I personally believe some are born with a natural ability to be effective socially, whereas we are not born with that ability. We have to learn it and have to put in a tremendous amount of effort to even be socially competent. But, yes, for some people, they have to BS in order to make themselves likeable. I can't do that, personally.
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qawer
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason why people need to read body language and all the other stuff is because they cannot trust each other. They cannot trust each other because everyone is in it for their own best, not the others best. That's what "reading the social environment" is about: through body language, actions etc. trying to figure out what other people are really up to, because they cannot put that much trust in the words other people tell them, if any.

One should avoid letting other people know some details about yourself, because they might use them against you. For instance an Asperger diagnosis. Only let out information that speaks positively or neutrally about yourself. Otherwise you could quickly get in trouble finding a job and a boy-/girlfriend.

Everytime you meet another person you should put on the appropriate facade. Never be truly genuine, unless you want the instant social punishment that goes with it.

Don't be naiive and think you won't be punished as a result of people appreciating your honesty. People use all information they can possibly get to scrutinize and judge you in order to know if you might be of any use to them. They'll use you to the extend that fits them the best.

I think it's difficult to appreciate this social game, can I ask you how you do it?
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Robdemanc
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a lot of people are willingly fooled by themselves and others. I think most people know others are lying but they prefer to go along with it because its a way of fitting in with the groups. And when groups form they reinforce each others delusions about who they are.

Pretense is widespread in our society, it is all over the media, it is in our films, novels, TV. Basically we all love fiction to the point that we present ourselves as fiction.

I have taken to writing fiction and I hope one day I will make money because lots of people want to read my lies.
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qawer
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robdemanc wrote:

I have taken to writing fiction and I hope one day I will make money because lots of people want to read my lies.


The difference is that that doesn't hurt anyone, but does the opposite. So that is a good thing. My problem is only when people hurt each other socially in sneaky ways.
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Janissy
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qawer wrote:
The reason why people need to read body language and all the other stuff is because they cannot trust each other.


No. It's because words are insufficient for full communication. What is happening here online is only partial communication. Emoticons/smileys help but they are in no way enough. Words are also a very slow form of communication. That doesn't matter in text because there is all the time in the world. But in face to face communication, time is often of the essence and having to say literally everything would be too slow.

Absolute and unswerving honesty could get around the deception problem. But it couldn't get around the speed and efficiency problem.
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