VW threatens to block investment in U.S. southern states if

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khaoz
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20 Feb 2014, 9:17 pm

if unions are not allowed. Now that's what I'm talking about
[url=http://www.al.com/business/index.ssf/2014/02/vw_labor_leader_threatens_to_b.html
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Fnord
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20 Feb 2014, 10:40 pm

Let them. VW is not necessary to the success of the American economy, and neither is the UAW.



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20 Feb 2014, 10:45 pm

1) Are employees in the other North American VW plants generally happy: YES / NO?
2) Do we need the jobs in this country? YES!
If the answer to #1 is yes and taking #2 into consideration, the answer should be a no-brainer.
Let's not organize the country any further into poverty.


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khaoz
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20 Feb 2014, 10:57 pm

Well, obviously driving the American work force into poverty with slave wages is not working. The town near me with a union GM plant would be a 200,000 people economic wasteland without the automotive industry, and local government knows it. Everyplace else depends on temporary agencies paying people $8-10 an hour. And this is the Midwest, manufacturing drives this economy. without the auto supply and manufacturing this area would fold up and die. And I live in a Republican state. I used to live in Florida in a town where Walmart was the highest paying employer of any size and the Walmart workers were shacking up together and living on cases of ramen noodles. The Walmart workers where I live now are the same. Having to sell plasma twice a week and get food stamps, with Walmarts encouragement. Housing depends on the automotive industry for new home sales. Unions built the middle class of America. The destruction of unions by obscenely greedy corporations have destroyed the middle class. Any company around here not related to the auto industry uses the Temp agencies to hire people for long term jobs which the company could very easily pay the same wages as they are paying Temp agencies to pay, plus more. American business owners are not loyal to America anymore. Hilarious that German and Japanese employers in America are more concerned for workers than American owned companies are. Sorry that you hate America so much.



khaoz
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20 Feb 2014, 11:03 pm

Raptor wrote:
1) Are employees in the other North American VW plants generally happy: YES / NO?
2) Do we need the jobs in this country? YES!
If the answer to #1 is yes and taking #2 into consideration, the answer should be a no-brainer.
Let's not organize the country any further into poverty.


How do we know how happy they are when outside interests are allowed to come into communities they do not belong to and terrorize and threaten communities with economic sanctions for workers daring to stick up for their rights, when the company they work for is encouraging unionization. The government interference in Tennessee should be investigated by the DOJ for intimidation.

What is your interest in whether workers fight for their rights? If it really drive costs up then nonunion automobiles would cost considerably less than union produced automobiles of comparable size. So what is your dog in the fight other than jealousy that someone actually has an opportunity to live like a civilized human being?



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20 Feb 2014, 11:05 pm

f*****g conservatives. Do you even understand why German companies want unionized employees? Efficiency! It makes good business sense. Instead of negotiating thousands of individual contracts you get one contract via the union!

Not that I'm defending unions, if you are still bothering to read you may notice that I'm implying that having a union actually makes it easier for the corporation to pacify and control their workforce just like all you corporatists want.


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khaoz
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20 Feb 2014, 11:10 pm

Why is it that in blogs and forums about issues like this it is always the people with little flags and other "patriotic" self indicators are always the ones who seem to with the most offensive anti American, unpatriotic posts. Who pays you fake flag wavers to write anti American propaganda and troll real Americans?



Raptor
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20 Feb 2014, 11:11 pm

khaoz wrote:
Well, obviously driving the American work force into poverty with slave wages is not working.

Are you saying VW pays slave wages?

Quote:
Sorry that you hate America so much.

That's supposed to be an accusation we conservatives use against liberals. :shameonyou:


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Fnord
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20 Feb 2014, 11:13 pm

khaoz wrote:
Well, obviously driving the American work force into poverty with slave wages is not working...

Slaves don't get wages, and union members normally start at around three times the minimum wage (~$7.50/hr, last I heard). This means that a first-year UAW member earns an hourly wage somewhere around $25 per hour. This translates into $52,000 per year. Double that for the medical, dental, tuition reimbursement and pension benefits, and you have most first-year UAW members earning more than a first-year Engineering school graduate.

UAW members are far from being "slave labor" ... :roll:



khaoz
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20 Feb 2014, 11:20 pm

Fnord wrote:
khaoz wrote:
Well, obviously driving the American work force into poverty with slave wages is not working...

Slaves don't get wages, and union members normally start at around three times the minimum wage (~$7.50/hr, last I heard). This means that a first-year UAW member earns an hourly wage somewhere around $25 per hour. This translates into $52,000 per year. Double that for the medical, dental, tuition reimbursement and pension benefits, and you have most first-year UAW members earning more than a first-year Engineering school graduate.

UAW members are far from being "slave labor" ... :roll:


Exactly, which is good for the economy. If VW wants its employees to be unionized then outside interests should not be permitted to come in and threaten the communities for voting in their own best interest. Are you jealous that union members make a decent wage. Do you have any idea how many UAW workers have college degrees in fields that do not pay them as much as they make building automobiles? I worked for GM for 11 years. I worked with people with BA degrees who came to GM because they want the American dream. Unions built the American middle class, not first year engineering school graduates.



khaoz
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20 Feb 2014, 11:31 pm

Raptor wrote:
khaoz wrote:
Well, obviously driving the American work force into poverty with slave wages is not working.

Are you saying VW pays slave wages?

Quote:
Sorry that you hate America so much.

That's supposed to be an accusation we conservatives use against liberals. :shameonyou:


Most of the accusations I see from you paid Conservative trolls toward liberals are lies and propaganda designed to turn Americans against each other. What is your interest in this issue other than jealousy? A college educated UAW member makes more than you? Is that it? I can guarantee you that UAW workers earn every cent they make. If you do not work for an automotive manufacturer or some company that is trying to unionize it is not your business to tell someone else they don't have the right to earn a decent living. The crap about unions driving the coist of a product up is not true. Go price a GM Silverado, then compare to a Toyota Tundra or whatever comparable American built nonunion vehicle. No discernible price difference.
I think you are a paid troll.



Fnord
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20 Feb 2014, 11:40 pm

khaoz wrote:
... If VW wants its employees to be unionized then outside interests should not be permitted to come in and threaten the communities for voting in their own best interest...

VW is an outside interest (from Germany) that is trying to influence American votes by threatening to not invest in American businesses.

That's like some bratty kid saying that if she doesn't get her way, she's going to take her toys and go home. Good riddance -- who needs another bratty kid telling other people what to do?

khaoz wrote:
Are you jealous that union members make a decent wage?

Hardly. My wages are higher because I have an engineering degree -- MSEE, to be exact.

khaoz wrote:
Do you have any idea how many UAW workers have college degrees in fields that do not pay them as much as they make building automobiles?

Do you?

khaoz wrote:
I worked with people with BA degrees who came to GM because they want the American dream.

A "Bachelor of Arts" degree is not good for much except management, accounting, legal work, teaching, fast-food, and assembly-line work. If they'd had any real ambition, they would have earned real degrees in Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics, or pushed themselves for an MBA degree and gone into management; then they would not have had to choose between working in fields that do not pay them as much as they make building automobiles.

Sure, the American Dream is for people who work for it; but I say, "Work Smarter, Not Harder". How many of your precious unionized GM line-workers get to work from home for 3 out of 5 days each week? Not many, if any, I presume; but I do.

khaoz wrote:
I worked for GM for 11 years.

Before the need for the GM bailout, obviously.

khaoz wrote:
Unions built the American middle class, not first year engineering school graduates.

Were it not for us engineers, there would be no cars for the under-achieving middle-class to build.

Face it, kid; the unions have had it. As of 2013, only about 11.3% of all workers were union members, and that number is still dropping. If the unions want to relive their past glory, they'll have to do more than just threaten to withhold their labor ... after all, there is still this thing called "off-shore outsourcing" to keep in mind.

And with a dozen or so other competitive brands, VW would do well to not blockade themselves out of the American market.



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20 Feb 2014, 11:51 pm

khaoz wrote:
Why is it that in blogs and forums about issues like this it is always the people with little flags and other "patriotic" self indicators are always the ones who seem to with the most offensive anti American, unpatriotic posts. Who pays you fake flag wavers to write anti American propaganda and troll real Americans?

Only page one of a News and Current Events thread and the incivility starts up already.

khaoz wrote:
Raptor wrote:
khaoz wrote:
Well, obviously driving the American work force into poverty with slave wages is not working.

Are you saying VW pays slave wages?

Quote:
Sorry that you hate America so much.

That's supposed to be an accusation we conservatives use against liberals. :shameonyou:


Most of the accusations I see from you paid Conservative trolls toward liberals are lies and propaganda designed to turn Americans against each other. What is your interest in this issue other than jealousy? A college educated UAW member makes more than you? Is that it? I can guarantee you that UAW workers earn every cent they make. If you do not work for an automotive manufacturer or some company that is trying to unionize it is not your business to tell someone else they don't have the right to earn a decent living. The crap about unions driving the coist of a product up is not true. Go price a GM Silverado, then compare to a Toyota Tundra or whatever comparable American built nonunion vehicle. No discernible price difference.
I think you are a paid troll.

Two troll accusations already. :roll:
And you still haven’t told me how much VW pays.
Do they pay more than unemployment?
More than wellfare?
Does VW offer benefits?


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khaoz
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20 Feb 2014, 11:52 pm

Fnord wrote:
khaoz wrote:
... If VW wants its employees to be unionized then outside interests should not be permitted to come in and threaten the communities for voting in their own best interest...

VW is an outside interest (from Germany) that is trying to influence American votes by threatening to not invest in American businesses.

That's like some bratty kid saying that if she doesn't get her way, she's going to take her toys and go home. Good riddance -- who needs another bratty kid telling other people what to do?

khaoz wrote:
Are you jealous that union members make a decent wage?

Hardly. My wages are higher because I have an engineering degree -- MSEE, to be exact.

khaoz wrote:
Do you have any idea how many UAW workers have college degrees in fields that do not pay them as much as they make building automobiles?

Do you?

khaoz wrote:
I worked with people with BA degrees who came to GM because they want the American dream.

A "Bachelor of Arts" degree is not good for much except management, accounting, legal work, teaching, fast-food, and assembly-line work. If they'd had any real ambition, they would have earned real degrees in Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics, or pushed themselves for an MBA degree and gone into management; then they would not have had to choose between working in fields that do not pay them as much as they make building automobiles.

Sure, the American Dream is for people who work for it; but I say, "Work Smarter, Not Harder". How many of your precious unionized GM line-workers get to work from home for 3 out of 5 days each week? Not many, if any, I presume; but I do.

khaoz wrote:
I worked for GM for 11 years.

Before the need for the GM bailout, obviously.

khaoz wrote:
Unions built the American middle class, not first year engineering school graduates.

Were it not for us engineers, there would be no cars for the under-achieving middle-class to build.

Face it, kid; the unions have had it. As of 2013, only about 11.3% of all workers were union members, and that number is still dropping. If the unions want to relive their past glory, they'll have to do more than just threaten to withhold their labor ... after all, there is still this thing called "off-shore outsourcing" to keep in mind.

And with a dozen or so other competitive brands, VW would do well to not blockade themselves out of the American market.


"Kid?" Are you serious? I am 57yo and have worked since I was 13, plus military service. You are a child, as indicated by your silly little icon picture.. Please stop trolling, and please stop being jealous of people who work harder than you do.



khaoz
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20 Feb 2014, 11:58 pm

Raptor wrote:
khaoz wrote:
Why is it that in blogs and forums about issues like this it is always the people with little flags and other "patriotic" self indicators are always the ones who seem to with the most offensive anti American, unpatriotic posts. Who pays you fake flag wavers to write anti American propaganda and troll real Americans?

Only page one of a News and Current Events thread and the incivility starts up already.

khaoz wrote:
Raptor wrote:
khaoz wrote:
Well, obviously driving the American work force into poverty with slave wages is not working.

Are you saying VW pays slave wages?

Quote:
Sorry that you hate America so much.

That's supposed to be an accusation we conservatives use against liberals. :shameonyou:


Most of the accusations I see from you paid Conservative trolls toward liberals are lies and propaganda designed to turn Americans against each other. What is your interest in this issue other than jealousy? A college educated UAW member makes more than you? Is that it? I can guarantee you that UAW workers earn every cent they make. If you do not work for an automotive manufacturer or some company that is trying to unionize it is not your business to tell someone else they don't have the right to earn a decent living. The crap about unions driving the coist of a product up is not true. Go price a GM Silverado, then compare to a Toyota Tundra or whatever comparable American built nonunion vehicle. No discernible price difference.
I think you are a paid troll.

Two troll accusations already. :roll:
And you still haven’t told me how much VW pays.
Do they pay more than unemployment?
More than wellfare?
Does VW offer benefits?


Off shore outsourcing is what is un-American and what is destroying this country. People who have no loyalty to their country. And people who offshore American jobs rather than pay American workers a living, decent wage should rightfully be stripped of their citizenship and have their assets seized by the people who actually earn the money for the product being manufactured and sold.



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21 Feb 2014, 1:55 am

You have to remember, most of German Labor is highly unionized. This goes back into antiquity, where you belonged to a guild and learned your craft in the guild, first as an apprentice, then as a journeyman, then finally becoming a master.

Personally, I'm not much for unions, since they never kept up with the times economy-wise. Lee Iacocca was successful at negotiating concessions from the UAW at Chrysler primarily because he showed the rank and file, as well as the leadership in the UAW the financials and how close Chrysler was to going bankrupt and out of business.

I still say that the best way to keep a union from forming is 1) treat your employees as human beings and not as sides of beef, 2) pay a livable wage to subordinates, 3) maintain a safe working environment, and 4) get to know your employees (by what Tom Peters call management by walking around).