Is social stigma a good argument against gayness being a cho

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Housedays
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12 Apr 2014, 2:05 pm

Is social stigma a good argument against gayness being a choice? I mean there are plenty of things that have social stigma that people choose regardless, such as eating their boogers. Not that I think being gay is a choice. It's clearly been shown by science not to be.



cannotthinkoff
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12 Apr 2014, 2:22 pm

I suppose if you argued with a homphobe that could be a possible argument. People normally don't choose something that will cause them suffering.

Although they may say that by "choice" they mean that a person chooses not to blend in, so in effect chooses to be gay; or is just acting out



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12 Apr 2014, 3:27 pm

Cannotthinkoff makes a point that it can be taken as a kind of 'f**k you', a rebellion thing. I think the best thing is to ask whoever's asserting it's a choice when it was they, presumably, decided to be straight.

Though really any such thing operates within the assumption that, if it were a choice, they ought to choose being straight instead. Neither women nor black people have chosen to be so, and they've still found themselves subjugated and hated and treated as lesser beings for what they are/aren't.


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naturalplastic
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12 Apr 2014, 3:49 pm

Do adult people eat boogers in public? I have never observed that in a public venue.

Even if there were a minority of adults who ate boogers in public booger-eating is hardly comparably to homosexuality for a number of reasons. You dont get denied housing, or job opportunities because you're a known 'booger eater".

Another poster about a years ago tried to make the same argument. But instead of using booger-eating they used smoking.

Not a totally accurate analogy (homosexuals have been marginalized for centuries- smokers only in recent decades), but not a totally inaccurate one either(smokers are indeed somewhat marginalized in our modern health conscious society).

And yes-folks do smoke despite the modern stigma against smoking.

The trouble with that line of reasoning is this: virtually all smokers started to smoke as teenagers. Among teenagers you're a dork if you DONT smoke. So virtually all smokers started to smoke by conforming to social pressure (that of their peers).By the time they become adults the social pressure reverses but they persist in smoking because they have become chemically addicted to nicotine.

So smokers become smokers to avoid social stigma and to conform. Very few smokers start smoking in defiance of social pressure. So choosing to smoke isnt really the same as 'choosing' to be homosexual.



0_equals_true
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12 Apr 2014, 4:11 pm

Science shouldn't care about stigma, unless stigma is the subject of the study.

Actually the science says it is both, as in people are born with a sexuality, but to some degree it may shift, but in general there is a strong preference. However the science hasn't proven anything beyond doubt, just that it is more likely than not. There is not a single gene, but there can be genetic similarities. But recent research said this account to approx 40% determining factor. However that doesn't mean it is isn't congenital. They will look for strong correlation first rather than multiple possibilities.

The point is both side of the 'argument' need a particular reality. But science shouldn't care about politics or this argument.

People's sexuality shouldn't really matter, so long as it is consensual with adults. The whole argument of whether it is a choice or not is irrelevant (or should be).

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simon_says
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12 Apr 2014, 4:32 pm

That sounds like kind of a riff on the historical criterion of embarrassment. Which states that a claim is more likely to be true if it embarrasses the author or his beliefs. So future historians will conclude that the real Batman was slightly unstable because who would write something embarrassing in an account designed to promote Batman if it wasn't true?

And in the same way your argument could be used to draw absurd conclusions. As mentioned by others above.



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13 Apr 2014, 1:41 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Do adult people eat boogers in public? I have never observed that in a public venue.

Even if there were a minority of adults who ate boogers in public booger-eating is hardly comparably to homosexuality for a number of reasons. You dont get denied housing, or job opportunities because you're a known 'booger eater".

Another poster about a years ago tried to make the same argument. But instead of using booger-eating they used smoking.

Not a totally accurate analogy (homosexuals have been marginalized for centuries- smokers only in recent decades), but not a totally inaccurate one either(smokers are indeed somewhat marginalized in our modern health conscious society).

And yes-folks do smoke despite the modern stigma against smoking.

The trouble with that line of reasoning is this: virtually all smokers started to smoke as teenagers. Among teenagers you're a dork if you DONT smoke. So virtually all smokers started to smoke by conforming to social pressure (that of their peers).By the time they become adults the social pressure reverses but they persist in smoking because they have become chemically addicted to nicotine.

So smokers become smokers to avoid social stigma and to conform. Very few smokers start smoking in defiance of social pressure. So choosing to smoke isnt really the same as 'choosing' to be homosexual.


Maybe some adults who do it in private may do it in public out of habit without being conscious of it.
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zer0netgain
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13 Apr 2014, 7:22 am

Well, your analysis is a bit off.

A homosexual doesn't wake up one day and say, "Gee, I think I want to have sex with other people of the same gender."

However, we all make choices about how we react to desires and feelings.

It's 100% normal to want to hurt someone who has offended you. It's 100% normal to want to kill someone who has threatened you, your family, your livelihood, etc. It's 100% normal to want to steal something rather than have to pay or trade for it.

All of these things it is considered proper to NOT give in to those desires.

Sexuality is no different. Lots of heterosexual people have homosexual attractions. Hell, our advertising (in the USA) is LOADED with homoerotic themes and images to move a product (e.g., think this guy's sexy, buy this product and you'll be just like him).

I would go as far as to say it is 100% normal for a heterosexual man to have thoughts of engaging in homosexual relations. That doesn't mean you MUST become a practicing homosexual.

The mantra of the 1960-1970's was, "If it feels good, do it."

That's perhaps the DUMBEST advice you can ever give someone. You can be deathly allergic to chocolate, but still crave it because it tastes so good. Trusting what makes you feel good can destroy you.

Your feelings are important and deserve consideration, but they should never be trusted as what is the "right" choice to make in life. It's perfectly acceptable to repress or ignore feelings and desires if you know why you don't want them in your life.

If you are a guy who finds other men sexually attractive but really don't want to live that life, then you are making a choice to not follow those feelings. Yes, a part of you may always feel unsatisfied, but how would satisfying those desires make you happier if you don't want to live a homosexual lifestyle?

KNOWING WHAT YOU REALLY WANT AND WHY YOU WANT IT is the key to making wise choices about your life. Trusting your feelings is like trying to navigate rapids without a paddle.

So, in this case, a person who has homosexual attractions and CHOOSES to pursue them is making a choice. The tragedy is if they make that choice unaware that they have a choice and made that choice without sitting down to consider how they feel about many things...not just sexual attractions. This is critical because most people dealing with issues of sexuality are young, impressionable, and too immature and inexperienced to make huge life-impacting decisions. Add in that they are flooded with hormones that increase their sexual urges, and they are really fighting a lot of biology that short-cuts their capacity to reason.