Nonverbal LD - considered on the autism spectrum?
14 Apr 2014, 5:10 pm
My parents have never been very open about my learning disability with me, mostly because I never really asked - however, I recently did some research (the fact that I had to research my own LD is ridiculous) and figured out that some people consider people with NVLDs to be on the autism spectrum.
My parents decided to omit this information from discussions about my learning disability for nearly ten years since I was diagnosed, so now I'm wondering, are NLVDs considered to be on the autism spectrum? Would someone with a non verbal learning disability identify as "on the autism spectrum"? What do you think?
I'm just so angry about this and I can't discuss it with her because it's an awkward topic, so I wanted some opinions.
Thanks! v n v
14 Apr 2014, 5:15 pm
All autistics have difficulties with nonverbal communication, but I don't know whether ALL nonverbal LDs are considered to be on the autism spectrum.
Last edited by Willard on 14 Apr 2014, 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
14 Apr 2014, 5:29 pm
Nonverbal Learning Disorder is a condition that is close to Asperger's Syndrome, with a few slight differences. People who have it (I was diagnosed at age 16) are not nonverbal. It means the opposite.. That the person is very good with things that are verbal, and not so good with things that aren't. You can have both Nonverbal LD and Asperger's. In fact, a lot of doctors seem to think that most people with NVLD have AS, and most people with AS could also meet criteria for NVLD. This is just from what I've read.
I don't think there is a clear cut answer, but some people, including some doctors and researchers, believe it's on the spectrum, and some don't. It's not at all included in the DSM, so really there's no actual answer. Just many opinions.
I'd say it has the possibility of belonging on the spectrum... But at a very, very high functioning end of it, as some difficulties associated with autism just aren't present in NVLD. Just my opinion.
_________________
AQ: 39 ---- RAADS-R: 187.0
Nonverbal Learning Disorder; diagnosed September 2010
Schizoaffective disorder; diagnosed December 2012
ASD/Asperger's Syndrome traits; diagnosed August 2014
IQ 120
(Diagnosed using the DSM-IV, not DSM-5)
14 Apr 2014, 7:20 pm
I think the best way one could come to a conclusion about this is to determine whether or not autism and NVLD consist of the same core component(s). The problem with that would be identifying the core component of autism. I think that most doctors would sum up autism as a developmental disability. Could NVLD be considered a developmental disability?
14 Apr 2014, 7:31 pm
As far as I have read, and what my doctor told me, NVLD can be considered a developmental disability.
_________________
AQ: 39 ---- RAADS-R: 187.0
Nonverbal Learning Disorder; diagnosed September 2010
Schizoaffective disorder; diagnosed December 2012
ASD/Asperger's Syndrome traits; diagnosed August 2014
IQ 120
(Diagnosed using the DSM-IV, not DSM-5)
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14 Apr 2014, 8:49 pm
You should read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Nonverbal-Learnin ... 0399534679
It's technically for parents and teachers of those with NLD, but I found it very interesting. To answer your question, by its strictest definition, NLD falls parallel to, but not on the autism spectrum. NLD is different from autism in that there is at least a 10 point gap between verbal (higher) and nonverbal (lower) IQ, and a general greater difficulty with mathematics that is more rarely seen in AS (which is more comparable to NLD than classic autism is), as well as a pronounced difficulty with balance and coordination that is more severe than is usually seen with AS. The biggest difference though, is that an NLD diagnosis does not include criteria for restricted and repetitive patterns of behaviour, which is required for an autism diagnosis. Those with NLD do not often present with "highly specific, restricted interests or routines", and they typically do not stim either. The book I referenced, as well as some other statistics I've seen, says that about 80-90% of those with an AS diagnosis also qualify for an NLD diagnosis, but that the majority with an NLD diagnosis do not fit the criteria for AS, if that makes any sense.
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14 Apr 2014, 9:18 pm
No, they're not the same but do have overlapping symptoms like trouble reading non-verbal cues and awkward or flat or odd etc mannerisms and non-verbal communication. It's sort-of a cross between a specific learning disorder (in understanding spatial relations and related things) and a developmental one. I've been diagnosed with both.
14 Apr 2014, 11:39 pm
its two different types of things completely, autsim is what is is and learning disabilities are what they are
some doctors in the hospital thought i had it because i said i cant read body language or facial expressions and they tested me for NVLD and it turns out im strong nonverbally and visually, but my communication skills are just Terrible, giving me an Autism diagnoses
i of course, have all the other autism symptoms, but the nonverbal communication was the thing that confirmed my diagnoses.
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15 Apr 2014, 12:04 am
We should clear something up here: the term "learning disability".
In some areas, "learning disability" is a general term that means that someone has an intellectual disability--that is, a general difficulty with learning and probably slower development in general. NVLD is not this type of learning disability.
However, "learning disability" can also mean a "specific learning disability"--that is, a difficulty with a relatively small area of learning, which is much more difficult for the person, compared to the person's other skills. Dyslexia is probably the most well-known example.
"Nonverbal learning disability" is meant in the second, specific sense. People with NVLD have profiles like this:
Excellent memory skills
Attention to detail, but misses the big picture
Trouble understanding reading
Difficulty with math, especially word problems
Poor abstract reasoning
Physically awkward; poor coordination
Messy and laborious handwriting
Concrete thinking; taking things very literally
Trouble with nonverbal communication, like body language, facial expression and tone of voice
Poor social skills; difficulty making and keeping friends
Fear of new situations
Trouble adjusting to changes
May be very naïve and lack common sense
Anxiety, depression, low self-esteem
May withdraw, becoming agoraphobic (abnormal fear of open spaces)
Source: http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/nld.htm
Look at that list, and you'll see that it is essentially a description of a highly-verbal person with autism--that is, Asperger syndrome. These people have communication problems and social problems despite large vocabulary, have problems with meaning, connotation, and symbolism despite good reading skills, have trouble with transitions and novelty, and are physically awkward. Every single symptom on that list is also associated with either Asperger's or with autism in general.
So here's my opinion on the matter: NVLD is what autism looks like to someone who specializes in learning disabilities. Where Kanner saw autism as a sort of psychosis and Asperger saw it as a sort of personality disorder, NVLD comes from people who see autism in terms of neurology and learning. They are three perspectives on the same thing.
There are some minor differences between those groups, of course, but I cannot consider those differences to be particularly relevant. Autism is so diverse that the differences from person to person far outweigh the differences between the categories.
NVLD is also a much easier diagnosis to give when a child is intelligent and verbal, because many parents have a stereotype of autism as being a severe, obvious disorder, and the doctor might worry that they will either reject the diagnosis out of hand or assume that the child is much more impaired than they actually are. Terms like NVLD and Asperger's for this particular cognitive profile do serve a purpose: They have taught us that autistic does not need to mean incapable of learning, incapable of communicating, locked in your own world. I don't think they are diagnostically distinct, but they are useful because they offer new ways to look at autism--NVLD from a neurological perspective, Asperger's from a social-skills perspective. We just can't get too locked into one particular model, or we'll miss what we can learn from the others.
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15 Apr 2014, 12:50 am
In some areas, "learning disability" is a general term that means that someone has an intellectual disability--that is, a general difficulty with learning and probably slower development in general. NVLD is not this type of learning disability.
However, "learning disability" can also mean a "specific learning disability"--that is, a difficulty with a relatively small area of learning, which is much more difficult for the person, compared to the person's other skills. Dyslexia is probably the most well-known example.
"Nonverbal learning disability" is meant in the second, specific sense. People with NVLD have profiles like this:
Excellent memory skills
Attention to detail, but misses the big picture
Trouble understanding reading
Difficulty with math, especially word problems
Poor abstract reasoning
Physically awkward; poor coordination
Messy and laborious handwriting
Concrete thinking; taking things very literally
Trouble with nonverbal communication, like body language, facial expression and tone of voice
Poor social skills; difficulty making and keeping friends
Fear of new situations
Trouble adjusting to changes
May be very naïve and lack common sense
Anxiety, depression, low self-esteem
May withdraw, becoming agoraphobic (abnormal fear of open spaces)
Source: http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/nld.htm
Look at that list, and you'll see that it is essentially a description of a highly-verbal person with autism--that is, Asperger syndrome. These people have communication problems and social problems despite large vocabulary, have problems with meaning, connotation, and symbolism despite good reading skills, have trouble with transitions and novelty, and are physically awkward. Every single symptom on that list is also associated with either Asperger's or with autism in general.
So here's my opinion on the matter: NVLD is what autism looks like to someone who specializes in learning disabilities. Where Kanner saw autism as a sort of psychosis and Asperger saw it as a sort of personality disorder, NVLD comes from people who see autism in terms of neurology and learning. They are three perspectives on the same thing.
There are some minor differences between those groups, of course, but I cannot consider those differences to be particularly relevant. Autism is so diverse that the differences from person to person far outweigh the differences between the categories.
NVLD is also a much easier diagnosis to give when a child is intelligent and verbal, because many parents have a stereotype of autism as being a severe, obvious disorder, and the doctor might worry that they will either reject the diagnosis out of hand or assume that the child is much more impaired than they actually are. Terms like NVLD and Asperger's for this particular cognitive profile do serve a purpose: They have taught us that autistic does not need to mean incapable of learning, incapable of communicating, locked in your own world. I don't think they are diagnostically distinct, but they are useful because they offer new ways to look at autism--NVLD from a neurological perspective, Asperger's from a social-skills perspective. We just can't get too locked into one particular model, or we'll miss what we can learn from the others.
What about the difficulty understanding spatial relations, problems with spatial/visual perception and problems that often go along with it, like trouble learning mathematics beyond a certain level when there's a strong spatial competent to some of it? These are also main symptoms of NLD. That's why it's sometimes considered a specific learning disorder. I think it's a kind-of cross between a developmental and a specific learning disorder because of the symptoms you listed.However people with AS can be very good with spatial relations and mathematics. I don't think that's a minor difference.
Also, NVLD doesn't present with repetitive behaviours (stimming, special interests) and the social impairment is usually less severe than in ASD. These differences I see as more minor. They are very similar but I think not the same.
Nonverbal learning disability: Nonverbal learning disabilities often manifest in motor clumsiness, poor visual-spatial skills, problematic social relationships, difficulty with mathematics, and poor organizational skills. These individuals often have specific strengths in the verbal domains, including early speech, large vocabulary, early reading and spelling skills, excellent rote-memory and auditory retention, and eloquent self-expression.from:
link
15 Apr 2014, 9:47 am
In some areas, "learning disability" is a general term that means that someone has an intellectual disability--that is, a general difficulty with learning and probably slower development in general. NVLD is not this type of learning disability.
However, "learning disability" can also mean a "specific learning disability"--that is, a difficulty with a relatively small area of learning, which is much more difficult for the person, compared to the person's other skills. Dyslexia is probably the most well-known example.
"Nonverbal learning disability" is meant in the second, specific sense. People with NVLD have profiles like this:
Excellent memory skills
Attention to detail, but misses the big picture
Trouble understanding reading
Difficulty with math, especially word problems
Poor abstract reasoning
Physically awkward; poor coordination
Messy and laborious handwriting
Concrete thinking; taking things very literally
Trouble with nonverbal communication, like body language, facial expression and tone of voice
Poor social skills; difficulty making and keeping friends
Fear of new situations
Trouble adjusting to changes
May be very naïve and lack common sense
Anxiety, depression, low self-esteem
May withdraw, becoming agoraphobic (abnormal fear of open spaces)
Source: http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/nld.htm
Look at that list, and you'll see that it is essentially a description of a highly-verbal person with autism--that is, Asperger syndrome. These people have communication problems and social problems despite large vocabulary, have problems with meaning, connotation, and symbolism despite good reading skills, have trouble with transitions and novelty, and are physically awkward. Every single symptom on that list is also associated with either Asperger's or with autism in general.
So here's my opinion on the matter: NVLD is what autism looks like to someone who specializes in learning disabilities. Where Kanner saw autism as a sort of psychosis and Asperger saw it as a sort of personality disorder, NVLD comes from people who see autism in terms of neurology and learning. They are three perspectives on the same thing.
There are some minor differences between those groups, of course, but I cannot consider those differences to be particularly relevant. Autism is so diverse that the differences from person to person far outweigh the differences between the categories.
NVLD is also a much easier diagnosis to give when a child is intelligent and verbal, because many parents have a stereotype of autism as being a severe, obvious disorder, and the doctor might worry that they will either reject the diagnosis out of hand or assume that the child is much more impaired than they actually are. Terms like NVLD and Asperger's for this particular cognitive profile do serve a purpose: They have taught us that autistic does not need to mean incapable of learning, incapable of communicating, locked in your own world. I don't think they are diagnostically distinct, but they are useful because they offer new ways to look at autism--NVLD from a neurological perspective, Asperger's from a social-skills perspective. We just can't get too locked into one particular model, or we'll miss what we can learn from the others.
What about the difficulty understanding spatial relations, problems with spatial/visual perception and problems that often go along with it, like trouble learning mathematics beyond a certain level when there's a strong spatial competent to some of it? These are also main symptoms of NLD. That's why it's sometimes considered a specific learning disorder. I think it's a kind-of cross between a developmental and a specific learning disorder because of the symptoms you listed.However people with AS can be very good with spatial relations and mathematics. I don't think that's a minor difference.
Also, NVLD doesn't present with repetitive behaviours (stimming, special interests) and the social impairment is usually less severe than in ASD. These differences I see as more minor. They are very similar but I think not the same.
Nonverbal learning disability: Nonverbal learning disabilities often manifest in motor clumsiness, poor visual-spatial skills, problematic social relationships, difficulty with mathematics, and poor organizational skills. These individuals often have specific strengths in the verbal domains, including early speech, large vocabulary, early reading and spelling skills, excellent rote-memory and auditory retention, and eloquent self-expression.from:
link
I'm diagnosed with NVLD and I have a great difficulty with special interests and, when I was younger, routines. I also stim. When I'm standing somewhere I usually rock back and forth, as well as play with my hair and fingers when nervous or excited. I also only have two friends, and I only see them when they request to see me, it's very odd that I'll ask them over. Those symptoms don't go along with the definition of NVLD though, so maybe I'm just different. I have a hard time with mental math, I really can't do it, but allow me to use a calculator and I can achieve 90%'s on tests and in final grades at school. But my grandma thinks I have been misdiagnosed, so I might not be the best example.
_________________
AQ: 39 ---- RAADS-R: 187.0
Nonverbal Learning Disorder; diagnosed September 2010
Schizoaffective disorder; diagnosed December 2012
ASD/Asperger's Syndrome traits; diagnosed August 2014
IQ 120
(Diagnosed using the DSM-IV, not DSM-5)
15 Apr 2014, 1:28 pm
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15 Apr 2014, 3:07 pm
Apparently, I have both......
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