the role of autistic social ignorance in human cultures

Page 1 of 2 [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

jbw
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2013
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 421

29 Jun 2014, 2:00 am

Sorry, this is a long post. Only read if you share an interest in this topic.

All humans are extremely programmable, and typical humans operate a social hierarchy just like other primates do. Throughout human history this combination of characteristics has shaped the evolution of human cultures.

Both characteristics have been and are being exploited by socially dominant indivisuals to build elaborate social power structures. With the invention of writing, these power structures have become enshrined in institutions that operate according to specific rules encoded in written form. The ?correct? interpretation of these rules is typically delegated to an elite appointed by the dominant primate (or small dominant group of primates) of a clan, kingdom, religion, or nation state, and the enforcement of the rules is delegated to a larger hierarchically organised group known as the government.

Over decades and centuries different clans, kingdoms, religions, or nation states develop distinct sets of rules and ways of doing things. These rules and ways are known as culture, and they evolve at a fairly slow pace. The more successful the education system of a culture, the slower the pace of fundamental cultural change. Ironically, the more programmable an individual is from the outside, via cultural education, the better this individual will embrace the established social rules, and will even pass them on to his/her offspring, thereby ensuring cultural continuouity and a minimal rate of change.

At a macro level, looking across all of humanity, cultural differences in combination with the primate drive for dominance regularly lead to wars and bloodshed, and to new configurations of dominance and power. The same pattern is observable in other primates, only at a much smaller scale, and somewhat less deadly ? human weaponry and warfare in the name of cultural dominance is the pinnacle of primate evolution.

The picture outlined above is missing a key ingredient: cultural and technological innovation. This is where I see autism fitting in, consistent with Temple Grandin?s observation that the first spear surely wasn?t developed by a group of primates socialising around a fire place, using language to tell tall tales of their heroic feats, in the interest in furthering their position on the social ladder.

The autistic cognitive focus on the physical world and non-social phenomena, potentially triggered and fuelled by hypersensitivity, leads down an alternative path to learning. Whilst the human majority mainly learns socially, via cultural transmission, the autistic minority mainly learns autodidactically, via first hand observation and experimentation. For significant innovation to take place it is essential to ignore estabished ways of doing things and related social pressures.

I suspect the autistic mind is as programmable as the non-autistic mind. The difference lies simply in the source of the inputs that perform the programming. The typical mind is mainly programmed by the social environment, whereas the autistic mind is programmed by autodidactic obervations and experiments.

The relationship between cultural conformists and autodidactic innovators/creators always involves a level of tension. Cultural non-conformance is a potential threat to established institutions and power structures. As a result, even in the current age of ?rapid? technological developments, institutons strive to ?manage innovation? and minimise the disruption of established power structures. A specific innovation is adopted by a culture if the established elite identifies opportunities to use the innovation to further its goals. Thus the spear that may have been invented to reduce the effort involved in hunting quickly became a tool of human warfare.

The important lesson is that innovators and artists tend to have very little influence over the use of their creations. The situation is somewhat bizarre. Innovation critcally depends on cultural non-conformance to happen in the first place, and then it only spreads if the culturally dominant elite finds a way to exploit the innovation to reinforce its position of power. This realisation leads to a bleak outlook, in particular considering that sociopaths have a tendency to rise to the top of the social hierarchy.

The only silver lining that I see on the horizon is that modern communication technology allows the minority of innovators and artists to collaborate across space and time, and across the artifical boundaries created by religions and nation states. Whether this decentralised collaborative force is able to reduce the power of primate social hierarchies remains to be seen.

History shows again and again that humans are extremely programmable. Some taboos in human cultures demonstrate that cultural rules can be successful in channeling human instinctive behaviour and social agression into a positive or neutral direction. The question is whether this programmability allows the primate drive for social status to be channeled entirely into harmless activities such as sports and artistic expression.

Culturally non-conforming autodidactic learners and creatives provide the glue between the concrete physical world and the abstract social world of primates. Human activity has become the dominant influence that shapes resource flows and ecosystem composition on this planet, with bio-diversity rapidly going down the drain. If this trend continues, then primate social hierarchies will self-destruct within a few generations. I wonder whether life?s next major experiment will be longer lasting, or whether the same pattern will repeat again.



AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

29 Jun 2014, 12:02 pm

Brilliant!


_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


dianthus
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Nov 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,138

29 Jun 2014, 12:52 pm

Brilliant post!

jbw wrote:
The typical mind is mainly programmed by the social environment, whereas the autistic mind is programmed by autodidactic obervations and experiments.


Wow, yes, exactly.

Quote:
The important lesson is that innovators and artists tend to have very little influence over the use of their creations. The situation is somewhat bizarre. Innovation critcally depends on cultural non-conformance to happen in the first place, and then it only spreads if the culturally dominant elite finds a way to exploit the innovation to reinforce its position of power. This realisation leads to a bleak outlook, in particular considering that sociopaths have a tendency to rise to the top of the social hierarchy.


Yes, omg yes. And this is what makes me want to withhold my own creativity from society. I feel like anything I might have to offer will somehow be misappropriated and misused in a way I never intended. Even in my job, working on the bottom tier of a large company, I feel like my efforts might be contributing to sociopathic purposes for those up top. It makes me sick.

Quote:
The only silver lining that I see on the horizon is that modern communication technology allows the minority of innovators and artists to collaborate across space and time, and across the artifical boundaries created by religions and nation states. Whether this decentralised collaborative force is able to reduce the power of primate social hierarchies remains to be seen.


Yeah it definitely has the potential to destabilize the control structures. But I'm afraid that those artificial boundaries, might not be so artificial at all. What I have seen, in situations where people begin to collaborate and communicate in a cooperative way, is that competitive, hierarchical tendencies still emerge and generate lots of in-fighting.

I don't think this can be redirected into harmless activities. The potential for harm is inherent to life on this planet, it is present in everything we do. People will find more subtle and indirect ways of hurting each other, that can be just as psychologically damaging as overt warfare, if not more so.

Quote:
If this trend continues, then primate social hierarchies will self-destruct within a few generations.


God I hope so.

Quote:
I wonder whether life?s next major experiment will be longer lasting, or whether the same pattern will repeat again.


Excellent question. I don't feel very optimistic about it.



CJH123
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 11 Mar 2014
Age: 27
Gender: Male
Posts: 205
Location: Kent, UK

29 Jun 2014, 6:16 pm

This truly is an amazing insight, makes perfect sence. For instance this kinda paragraph would sum up the Cold War in a way, two different systems with one opposing the other and both trying ever so hard to ve the dominant. Excellent honstaly just excellent.



Norny
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Dec 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,488

29 Jun 2014, 9:52 pm

The majority of your post can make sense to me, but to suggest that a 'typical brain' is programmed primarily by the social environment is absurd unless you meant to imply that observations/experiments are also involved within the social environment (i.e. an NT will experiment in a group, an autistic alone).


_________________
Unapologetically, Norny. :rambo:
-chronically drunk


jbw
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2013
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 421

30 Jun 2014, 1:56 am

Norny wrote:
observations/experiments are also involved within the social environment (i.e. an NT will experiment in a group


Yes, this is correct. I suspect that social status is the typical special interest.

Imagine someone spending as much time and energy on schemes to maximise their social status as you are spending on your special interest(s), and you get a rough idea of what the "other" end of the spectrum looks like. Also imagine that for such a person decoding social cues is like a mother tongue, requiring no noticeable conscious effort, so that all the energy can go into socially out-smarting others. The social language is always ambiguous, and neurotypicals make plenty of mistakes as well, but they enjoy the competitive game. It's called "getting ahead".

We learn how the world works, detect all kinds of beautiful patterns, and learn how to work with certain materials, whilst others learn how to best exploit the social world, and play the game of social engineering. The mechanics of learning are the same, always involving experiments and observations, but the focus of attention and the objectives differ significantly.

Modern economics is nothing else but so-called "civilised" social competition, where physical weapons are replaced by the power of money.



Iyelix
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 11

04 Jul 2014, 4:49 am

I think a lot of the disdain towards autistic people, is that we're more often than not, less useful to an empires continued survival, which isn't a bad thing, but it's seen that way, and hence a lot of societal efforts to change us and all, trying to fix what isn't broken, and the whole misconception that learning things in the "conforming" type way is somehow better than learning things from a different perspective.



jbw
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2013
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 421

20 Jul 2014, 7:48 am

dianthus wrote:
Quote:
The only silver lining that I see on the horizon is that modern communication technology allows the minority of innovators and artists to collaborate across space and time, and across the artifical boundaries created by religions and nation states. Whether this decentralised collaborative force is able to reduce the power of primate social hierarchies remains to be seen.

Yeah it definitely has the potential to destabilize the control structures. But I'm afraid that those artificial boundaries, might not be so artificial at all. What I have seen, in situations where people begin to collaborate and communicate in a cooperative way, is that competitive, hierarchical tendencies still emerge and generate lots of in-fighting.

Yes, looking at human history, the destruction of one competitive social hierarchy typically leads to the emergence of a new hierarchy.

I am however intrigued by the notion of niche construction that is increasingly recognised by biologists as a major force in evolution. See for example this research:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23664975
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3408632/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3408633/
At this point in time I can't comment on the quality of the research. I need some time to familiarise myself with this material in detail.

The book Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution by Petr Kropotkin http://gutenberg.org/ebooks/4341 was written around 100 years ago. It contains observations from biological field work and provides an interesting starting point for understanding the role of cooperation in evolution.

Also worthwhile to consider the work by Robert Sapolsky: https://www.youtube.com/embed/A4UMyTnlaMY
dianthus wrote:
I don't think this can be redirected into harmless activities. The potential for harm is inherent to life on this planet, it is present in everything we do. People will find more subtle and indirect ways of hurting each other, that can be just as psychologically damaging as overt warfare, if not more so.

I agree that humans can be experts at finding new ways of hurting each other physically and psychologically.

However it may well be that only a relative small minority actually enjoy hurting others. The majority of the typical population may simply copy some of the behaviour of the local top sociopath to satisfy their drive social status, which seems to easily override their empathy for others.

Perhaps the typical drive for social status is stronger than the typical drive for sex. This would explain why on the one hand rape is a taboo in most societies that is upheld in most contexts, and why on the other hand the techniques that are used to climb the social ladder, no matter how cruel, are generally celebrated as "success strategies", are marketed in self-help books, and are taught as tools of the trade in business schools. In humans it seems that social status has partially decoupled from the biological goal of mating success.

I am intrigued how excited many people can get about sport events. Professional sport is a huge industry that allows people to gain status without necessarily killing each other, and it seems billions of TV viewers gain/lose status as well by virtue of group identity :-) I don't understand these people, but as long as they leave the rest of us alone, I would say sport is a great way of channeling the primate drive for social status.



em_tsuj
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,786

20 Jul 2014, 1:49 pm

I don't think you give NT's enough credit. Autistic people are not the only people who are good at engineering and scientific exploits, and there are plenty of NT people who are cooperate and caring and moral. When it comes to cooperation and caring, it seems that NT's blow us out of the water. The fact that NT's love to cooperate with each other is what has made humanity what it is. Not being good at cooperating with others (which leaves you doing everything yourself, not knowing of alternatives because you do not have the social connections or think to ask others for help) is inefficient.

I do, however, agree with your general theory that autistic people have unique and valuable insights because of our neurological differences. We are much less likely to get blinded by groupthink or group loyalty.



olympiadis
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,849
Location: Fairview Heights Illinois

22 Sep 2014, 9:33 pm

jbw wrote:
The autistic cognitive focus on the physical world and non-social phenomena, potentially triggered and fuelled by hypersensitivity, leads down an alternative path to learning. Whilst the human majority mainly learns socially, via cultural transmission, the autistic minority mainly learns autodidactically, via first hand observation and experimentation. For significant innovation to take place it is essential to ignore estabished ways of doing things and related social pressures.

I suspect the autistic mind is as programmable as the non-autistic mind. The difference lies simply in the source of the inputs that perform the programming. The typical mind is mainly programmed by the social environment, whereas the autistic mind is programmed by autodidactic obervations and experiments.

The relationship between cultural conformists and autodidactic innovators/creators always involves a level of tension. Cultural non-conformance is a potential threat to established institutions and power structures.



Exactly. In NTs everything, especially the learning process, is run through the filter of identity at every step in the process.
The identity is composed of a massive amount of algorithms (the hive mind) that have been downloaded from the social environment.

The tension you speak of is almost completely one-sided, as it is a result of the aggressiveness of the hive mind. Minding your own business is NOT allowed. If you exist, then you need to become a drone.



Fall
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 27 May 2014
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 1
Location: LHC

22 Sep 2014, 11:00 pm

Another drive would be greed; some are greedier than others. If you average the whole human population it will show a net positive. What better way to drive greed by using capitalism and monetary instruments. It keeps society /technology progressing forward. But there are pros and cons, benefits and liabilities to everything.

I observed almost every animal on earth shows some sign of greed. A bird will grab the food on the ground and fly away. A lion will guard its hunted prey. Squirrels will horde its nuts underground with false stashes.

Excluding from fictional books and movies, I have yet to observe any animal ?willing? to share food.



jbw
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2013
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 421

22 Sep 2014, 11:22 pm

Fall wrote:
Another drive would be greed; some are greedier than others. If you average the whole human population it will show a net positive. What better way to drive greed by using capitalism and monetary instruments. It keeps society /technology progressing forward. But there are pros and cons, benefits and liabilities to everything.

I observed almost every animal on earth shows some sign of greed. A bird will grab the food on the ground and fly away. A lion will guard its hunted prey. Squirrels will horde its nuts underground with false stashes.

Excluding from fictional books and movies, I have yet to observe any animal ?willing? to share food.

Don't be fooled by the social Darwinist interpretation of evolution. I recommend the following book http://www.amazon.com/Age-Empathy-Natur ... 006WB7KEA/.

I believe humans have a capacity for a broader spectrum of behaviour than animals due to the extent of the influence of cultural programming. This is definitely a double edged sword. Some humans can be extremely compassionate and caring whilst others can be cruel beyond anything ever seen in any other species.



Protogenoi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Aug 2014
Gender: Female
Posts: 817

23 Sep 2014, 1:42 pm

jbw wrote:
Sorry, this is a long post. Only read if you share an interest in this topic.

All humans are extremely programmable, and typical humans operate a social hierarchy just like other primates do. Throughout human history this combination of characteristics has shaped the evolution of human cultures.

Both characteristics have been and are being exploited by socially dominant indivisuals to build elaborate social power structures. With the invention of writing, these power structures have become enshrined in institutions that operate according to specific rules encoded in written form. The ?correct? interpretation of these rules is typically delegated to an elite appointed by the dominant primate (or small dominant group of primates) of a clan, kingdom, religion, or nation state, and the enforcement of the rules is delegated to a larger hierarchically organised group known as the government.

Over decades and centuries different clans, kingdoms, religions, or nation states develop distinct sets of rules and ways of doing things. These rules and ways are known as culture, and they evolve at a fairly slow pace. The more successful the education system of a culture, the slower the pace of fundamental cultural change. Ironically, the more programmable an individual is from the outside, via cultural education, the better this individual will embrace the established social rules, and will even pass them on to his/her offspring, thereby ensuring cultural continuouity and a minimal rate of change.

At a macro level, looking across all of humanity, cultural differences in combination with the primate drive for dominance regularly lead to wars and bloodshed, and to new configurations of dominance and power. The same pattern is observable in other primates, only at a much smaller scale, and somewhat less deadly ? human weaponry and warfare in the name of cultural dominance is the pinnacle of primate evolution.

The picture outlined above is missing a key ingredient: cultural and technological innovation. This is where I see autism fitting in, consistent with Temple Grandin?s observation that the first spear surely wasn?t developed by a group of primates socialising around a fire place, using language to tell tall tales of their heroic feats, in the interest in furthering their position on the social ladder.

The autistic cognitive focus on the physical world and non-social phenomena, potentially triggered and fuelled by hypersensitivity, leads down an alternative path to learning. Whilst the human majority mainly learns socially, via cultural transmission, the autistic minority mainly learns autodidactically, via first hand observation and experimentation. For significant innovation to take place it is essential to ignore estabished ways of doing things and related social pressures.

I suspect the autistic mind is as programmable as the non-autistic mind. The difference lies simply in the source of the inputs that perform the programming. The typical mind is mainly programmed by the social environment, whereas the autistic mind is programmed by autodidactic obervations and experiments.

The relationship between cultural conformists and autodidactic innovators/creators always involves a level of tension. Cultural non-conformance is a potential threat to established institutions and power structures. As a result, even in the current age of ?rapid? technological developments, institutons strive to ?manage innovation? and minimise the disruption of established power structures. A specific innovation is adopted by a culture if the established elite identifies opportunities to use the innovation to further its goals. Thus the spear that may have been invented to reduce the effort involved in hunting quickly became a tool of human warfare.

The important lesson is that innovators and artists tend to have very little influence over the use of their creations. The situation is somewhat bizarre. Innovation critcally depends on cultural non-conformance to happen in the first place, and then it only spreads if the culturally dominant elite finds a way to exploit the innovation to reinforce its position of power. This realisation leads to a bleak outlook, in particular considering that sociopaths have a tendency to rise to the top of the social hierarchy.

The only silver lining that I see on the horizon is that modern communication technology allows the minority of innovators and artists to collaborate across space and time, and across the artifical boundaries created by religions and nation states. Whether this decentralised collaborative force is able to reduce the power of primate social hierarchies remains to be seen.

History shows again and again that humans are extremely programmable. Some taboos in human cultures demonstrate that cultural rules can be successful in channeling human instinctive behaviour and social agression into a positive or neutral direction. The question is whether this programmability allows the primate drive for social status to be channeled entirely into harmless activities such as sports and artistic expression.

Culturally non-conforming autodidactic learners and creatives provide the glue between the concrete physical world and the abstract social world of primates. Human activity has become the dominant influence that shapes resource flows and ecosystem composition on this planet, with bio-diversity rapidly going down the drain. If this trend continues, then primate social hierarchies will self-destruct within a few generations. I wonder whether life?s next major experiment will be longer lasting, or whether the same pattern will repeat again.


One of my professors this year is an evolutionary psychologist/biologist (Master degree in psychology, doctorate in Biology) and he actually talked about the evolutionary purpose of autism in class. And he said something similar.
He talked about how aspies or other high functioning spectrum people would be uniquely capable at survival outside of primitive communites and that the protoculture at the time was also uniquely suitable for breeding, i.e. being able to be an effective survivor means greater likelyhood of gaining a mate.
For one, the ability to survive alone requires greater innovation than surviving as a community.
So, I think my professor would agree with you.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,811
Location: London

23 Sep 2014, 2:47 pm

Nice hypothesis. Do you have any evidence to support it? Of today's innovators, what proportion are autistic? Are autistic people more likely to actually innovate than NTs?



olympiadis
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,849
Location: Fairview Heights Illinois

23 Sep 2014, 4:46 pm

systems (communities) do not have to be as innovative because the system has default built in.
That is, certain burdens will fall onto a certain percentage of the community in order for others to survive and thrive. Even if a small percentage fail and die, the system still lives on.
An individual does not have this feature, and so must be more innovative to survive.

NTs are limited to working within models or structures that maintain social approval.
Since social approval is not directly attached to physical law, these models or structures are not necessarily efficient, or even effective.
IMO, innovating within an imaginary world is nowhere near as valuable as innovating in the real world.



jbw
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2013
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 421

23 Sep 2014, 5:29 pm

olympiadis wrote:
NTs are limited to working within models or structures that maintain social approval.
Since social approval is not directly attached to physical law, these models or structures are not necessarily efficient, or even effective.


Agree. Additionally typical humans don't invent these structures, they are merely well adapted to intuitively copying such structures. This capability is neither good nor bad, but it provides a suitable environment for the "work" of psychopaths.

olympiadis wrote:
IMO, innovating within an imaginary world is nowhere near as valuable as innovating in the real world.


Yes. In fact "innovation" in an imaginary world is a form of social gaming, and it provides the abstract material with which psychopaths construct their schemes. A key characteristic of a psychopath is the ability to create imaginary constructs that are perceived as being real by typical brains.