UK - Should footballer Ched Evans get his old job back?

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Robdemanc
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16 Aug 2014, 1:03 pm

Guardian Comment

This comment in the Guardian newspaper seems to suggest that when Ched Evans is released he should not be allowed to resume his football career. I do not agree with the writer of the article, as I have looked closely at the original case against him and have suspicions of his conviction. He is about to appeal against the original conviction.

But, whatever the case, is it right that someone who has served time should be denied their original living?



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16 Aug 2014, 2:07 pm

There is no law against anyone of legal age being employed, except those who are still subject to controls like probation, or child protection orders.

However commercially I think it would a bad decision.

You have to be respected by your team and fans. This is going to look very bad for the club.



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16 Aug 2014, 2:40 pm

This thread is inviting yet another discussion about the definition of rape, and there is little chance of changing anyone's opinion.

Rape is now a technical offence, like speeding, and if a male inserts his finger into a female orifice then he is likely to face a jail sentence.

A woman can point her finger anywhere she likes, and will face no charges. She won't even be named.


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16 Aug 2014, 5:30 pm

The law is actually pretty clear, inserting a finger in a vagina with anus without consent is sexual assault.

It doesn't make a differnce if a man or woman does it. Anonymity for the victim, is not dependent on gender. though legal anonymity continues to be controversial.

Just because you think something, or believe something to be true doesn't make it true. Perception of crime is vastly different form the reality.

This case I don't know about it, it look like his appeal was rejected, and this was upheld the the Court of Appeal.



Robdemanc
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17 Aug 2014, 2:05 am

I think it would be interesting to see Sheffield Utd pick up his contract. It should give a message that serving a sentence for a crime that involved no violence, and was at worst a misunderstanding between several people who had been drinking, has been punishment enough.

The grounds of the original appeal were rejected by the courts, but I think that only means Evan's doesn't have clever solicitors. I am very surprised the original case went to court, if the two men in the case had been a couple of bricklayers it would not have done.



Humanaut
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17 Aug 2014, 2:49 am

Robdemanc wrote:
But, whatever the case, is it right that someone who has served time should be denied their original living?

It is up to the employer to decide.



Robdemanc
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17 Aug 2014, 5:33 am

Humanaut wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
But, whatever the case, is it right that someone who has served time should be denied their original living?

It is up to the employer to decide.


That's true, and it seems Sheffield Utd have indicated they want to pick up his contract when he is released.



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17 Aug 2014, 3:20 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
The grounds of the original appeal were rejected by the courts, but I think that only means Evan's doesn't have clever solicitors. I am very surprised the original case went to court, if the two men in the case had been a couple of bricklayers it would not have done.


These are exactly the arguments that don't stand up in court. In fact the exact opposite argument is often made. But claim like this need evidence, otherwise it just hearsay. It is also hearsay in the sense it is irrelevant when you are in a court session, becuase the judge still has to uphold due process, they can't do a judicial version of affirmative action, becuase of claims like yours.

How well do you actually know the CPS process for bring case. If there is a problem with law it is matter for Parliament not the police, CPS, or Judiciary.

Clever lawyers or not he could afford good legal representation. The appeal was rejected by the judges. So the can't have been compelling grounds for appeal.

You are talking as if you were there, as if you know for sure it was a misunderstanding, but you weren't there. Were you one of the jury?

The other defendant was acquitted, and he was also a footballer.



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17 Aug 2014, 3:44 pm

For those who are unfamiliar with the case, here is a brief summary:

Woman is barely conscious after consuming a large amount of alcohol, and possibly cocaine. Meets man, agrees to have sex with him. Friend enters hotel room and proceeds to have sex with her. Incident is video taped. Woman awakes in the morning with no memory of the event.

In other words, it's a pretty clear cut example of rape.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although I think Evans did something very wrong, I do not think he should be stopped from having a career. He has served a prison sentence, that should be enough. I wouldn't want him playing for my club, but that's just personal taste.



Last edited by The_Walrus on 18 Aug 2014, 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Robdemanc
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18 Aug 2014, 3:01 am

Walrus - Where did you get your info from? If you read the details on crimeline it appears, based on witness statements and CCTV, the situation was -

Woman meets man in street and agrees to go to his hotel room, man texts his friend to say he's got a girl, man and woman get to room and start having sex, mans friend arrives, man and man ask woman if friend can join in, woman says yes, friend has sex with woman, men leave, woman wakes up alone with no memory of events.

The woman cannot remember what happened and doesn't even claim she was raped. It is not clear whether she was unconscious because the hotel porter, who listened at the door, claims he heard her making sexual moaning sounds. He concluded a man and woman were having sex and thought nothing of it.

The jury were asked to decide whether the woman was in a fit state to consent to the mans friend at the time he arrived at the hotel room. They decided she wasn't in a fit state at the time he arrived.



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18 Aug 2014, 4:57 am

I have amended my statement to reflect reality better than my faulty memory.

For what it is worth, the jury actually decided that McDonald had a reasonable belief that she was consenting to sex (she was enthusiastic, seemed to be enjoying herself, was initiating, came back to his hotel room). Evans didn't have that reasonable belief when he found her intoxicated on a friend's bed.



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18 Aug 2014, 6:18 am

The two defendants claim she was engaged in sex with McDonald when Evans walked into the room. So I don't see why this is grounds to assume she was in no state to consent to Evans. Are they saying that when a person is in the process of having sex that it disables their ability to make a free choice? Are they saying that they believe McDonalds version of events but only up to the point where Evans walked into the room? Does McDonalds statement become unreliable once Evan's walked into the room?

Remember that the woman is saying nothing about what happened in the room.



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19 Aug 2014, 10:03 am

I should know better by now, but I can't stop myself from asking the following questions...

Between Ched Evans and the un-named female, which life has has been the more irrevocably damaged by the traumatic results of a night of mutual substance abuse? Was it really worth troubling the UK judicial system with such an insignificant event? In what way has the un-named female experienced long-term suffering from the night's events?

As I said in my earlier post, rape and sexual assault have become technical offences just like speeding - the camera cannot lie, and the circumstances of the offence are of no significance.

But in rape and sexual assault cases, you don't even need a photograph.

Women are no less predatory than men, and will use whatever weapon they can lay their hands on - they say that rape is used as a weapon of war. They are probably right.

Men have always pushed things to the limit - that's how the game works. It is right that the limit should be clearly understood, and women need to understand that they also do not have the right to wreck the life of a member of the opposite sex, and then walk away unchallenged.

ps - why was this thread moved to PPR? It has no connection with any of those three headings, and is 100% about a current event...


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Robdemanc
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19 Aug 2014, 12:07 pm

I didn't move the thread, I started it in PPR because the OP question was of a sort of moral/political/sociological theme. Should Ched Evans be denied his career?

I would say for sure that Ched Evan's life has been damaged a great deal. He has spent 2 and a half years behind bars and now there is a campaign urging Sheffield Utd not to pick up his contract when he is released. So people out there want to deny him a living.

Of the girl? I cannot say whether her life has been damaged or not. We don't know who she is, where she is, what she is now doing. What we can say though, is that she remembers nothing of the night in question, so if she remembers none of it, I do not see how she can be traumatized. I don't think I've ever been traumatized by something I don't remember.

The bizarre thing about this case is that the girl did not even claim she was raped. The idea she was raped was formed by police after Evans and McDonald admitted they had sex with her.

I think you are right that some women can be very predatory. I have been in situations with very demanding women and sometimes it is scary. I suppose because men are seen as stronger, they are automatically assumed to be the aggressors, or instigators.



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19 Aug 2014, 1:12 pm

Nigel Evans's so-called victims stated in court that they did not consider that a crime had been committed - luckily for Nigel, he was acquitted.

Dave Lee Travis was acquitted of most of the accusations against him, but the jury failed to agree on a couple of others. So far as I understand these things, DLT has not even been allowed to set eyes upon the women who are accusing him of touching their tits back in the 1970s.

Back in the 1970s, DLT was a highly attractive young stud, who was surrounded by willing young fillies.

The suggestion now is that he was no better than a dirty old man, taking advantage of the innocence of groupies.

Max Clifford's only proven offence against a minor was that he fingered a 15-year-old who had been willingly handed into his care by her parents in the hope that she would achieve commercial success from her physical attractions. His other proven victims were adults who were similarly in search of commercial success in the business of physical attraction. There was no suggestion at all of rape. He is now serving 8 years.

Cliff Richard is the latest ageing celebrity who is likely to have to spend most of his well-earned fortune defending himself against an opportunistic accusation from an unknown person.


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Robdemanc
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20 Aug 2014, 3:07 am

I am suspicious of all these cases and I think they are being used as a way to distract from, or lessen the public reaction to the Whitehall pedophile ring in 1980s.

The Ched Evans case is different from these though, a instance of rape may have occurred.