Atheists in the Military

Post Reply New Topic

This topic has surfaced a few times on WP, but now there is a fresh new YouPoll out describing US attitudes towards letting atheists serve in the military:



The poll was prompted by the case of a US Air Force enlisted airman who will be kicked out of USAF because he refuses to utter the "So Help Me God" part of the Air Force Active Duty Oath of Enlistment (quoted below) to re-enlist.
http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20 ... 30886492=1

Here are a few perhaps interesting bullet points if one digs a little deeper:

• 12 percent of Republicans (or almost 1 in 8) believe that atheists should not be allowed to serve in the military.
• 19 percent of Black Americans (or almost 1 in 5) believe that atheists should not be allowed to serve in the military.
• 50 percent of Americans believe that "So Help Me God" part should be a mandatory part of the military oath (29 percent say it shouldn't, and 22 percent are not sure). However, note how this changes if respondents are given 3 options, as seen in the above figure.

(For those interested, the full poll also contains questions about the Pledge of Allegiance and the "In God We Trust" phrase on US currency. - See the 2nd link below)

Anyway, as interesting as the numbers may be on their own, I cannot help noticing that the US military enlistment oath might actually be contradicting itself:





Please discuss.

Sources:
https://today.yougov.com/news/2014/09/1 ... -military/
http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/d ... 140912.pdf
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-201 ... sec502.pdf
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charte ... cript.html
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-76 ... -Pg748.pdf
http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/produ ... 6-2606.pdf

If an affirmation (without the offending phrase) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmati ... of_America can be made instead of an oath or sworn pledge within U.S. courts and public offices, why couldn't the U.S. military do the same?

Because the military apparently doesn't have jurisdiction to to waive any part of the Oath. The wording of the oath was decided by Congress in 1962, and is part of the US Code (see the second-to-last link in my OP), and USAF brought their previous oath (which *did* allow for an omission of the "So Help Me God" part) in line with the wording of the US Code in October 2013. See page 1 and 37 in the last link in my OP.

One might ask, however, if it is even legal for USAF to set aside the Constitution in favor of a Congressional Act, but the Supreme Court might have to issue a ruling to establish conclusively if this is indeed what has happened.

They say there are no atheists in foxholes.

1. I dont remember being asked if I was an atheist
2. "So help me God" is in the oath but so what? It's not going to keep any atheist from taking the oath unless said atheists really don't want to join and are just using that as an excuse.....

Let me guess: "They" are Christians? LOL What a load of bollocks.

This is the only study I've found on the subject: http://foodpsychology.cornell.edu/outreach/atheist.html

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZcoeuCI_Sw[/youtube]

Or maybe they don't want to swear an oath on something they don't believe in. If the atheist in question wouldn't want to join, why are they even there?

What it is is four (4) words at the end of the oath typically taken en masse that they are only repeating after someone. It's more of a formality than anything and is in no way a confirmation of any religion.


- Being pressured into it by parents that are tired of housing their over 18 kid while they arent doing anything constructive. It happens often enough to be counted.
- Going through the motions to "prove" they want to join up but use the "So help me God" part of the oath as a cop-out saying it goes against their "principles".

I know someone that went through the motions and flunked the ASVAB by getting such a low score that no branch would take him for ANY purpose. How do I know he flunked it on purpose? I don't know for a fact, but I've known him long enough to know he's too smart in every way to get such a sh***y score. That's just one story.

I can see this transitioning into another need for totally zero tolerance sec-u-lar government thread.

^They must be getting lax,my son took it for a hoot and told me he answered every question wrong.Army recruiters still worried us to death on the phone.One of them must have thought the whole family was brain dead,told me if I got my son to sign up he wouldn't be deployed out of the country,they'd just keep him around here,yeah,sure they will.

So you are saying having an oath that could be used as an excuse is good for filtering out the flakey people? That may be fine, but there are genuine atheists who feel they are being disingenuous by saying those words. It may not be a big deal to many people but it's also not a big deal to change the words, or have a secular version of the oath as an option.

Yeah, "GOD" is an abstract concept not tied to a religion.

For example, it is a satire in poker that there are no atheists in poker, because players are always praying to the "poker GOD". And what about "Lady Luck"? She is a supernatural being that grants luck to players. Players pray to her, so she could be a "GOD" of luck.

World Series of Poker blog: "There are no atheists in poker tournaments, son"
http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/ept/2013/ ... 41235.html

It seem totally irrelevant to me if people are atheists or not who want to join up for the military. Just as irrelevant as skin colour. Why anyone would need to declare a belief in a god to be a soldier is beyond me. They are joining up to fight for their country, not to sing hymns!

That's why I never "came out" as an atheist when I was in the Air Force........

Way back in the late Mesozoic I was allowed to omit those words, and I did omit them. But if that weren't an option I think I would have joined anyway. They're just meaningless sounds to me, and it's not as if I were being forced to go to church or lead the unit in prayer.

@Tallyman

Personally I don't believe it should be in there, even though my faith in GOD is unwavering; simply as one definition of GOD is often pushed over another, and it can lead to some folks feeling excluded and unincorporated in the spirit of camaraderie that can be a life or death situation, in real effect in the military, as morale is key to survival in life or death combat scenarios.

And although a belief in God is not necessarily a literal belief in a religion per separation of church and state, I think that is splitting hairs as in the US per the dominance of traditional Christianity here from everything from Christmas to the frigging Duck Dynasty, if you will.

And yes, I do support Atheist rights as seeing that as religion as in reality it obviously is. It's almost impossible for a person to state an atheist belief where I live, as there is a Christian Church on almost every street corner.

And it also is as impossible for a person to state they are homosexual whether it be in the church pews or at work with that overwhelming demographic. So people usually don't come out of the closet, if you will, just for the sake of continuing to gain subsistence through work, unless they are lucky enough to work for the government and be protected by escaping our laws of firing folks for any reason in the state of Florida, outside of unionized and government work.

However, my opinion is certainly in the minority, and one of idealism now vs. reality as it applies to general human nature, specific to where I live.

The opposite, majority rational side of the argument, is human beings as social animals who think abstractly with complex abstract language use common symbols whether it be words or edifice of structures to bond, simply bond.

The word GOD is such a symbol, and yes considering 98 percent of the world at least believes in the possibility of some kind of GOD, it would be irrational for me to ever think that my ideal could be effected in a large country like the USA, where somewhere around 80 percent of the country still professes not only a theist belief but a traditional Christian one too.

I don't particularly care for traditional Christianity as I can discern the symbolic nature of more ancient texts, but never the less there too, per the reality of statistics; I know that most people cannot and that number seems to be growing lower as well, for the general population who cannot make it much further than a 'twitter verse' without being distracted to move on to the next bite size measure of infotainment.

Now granted this may be different where you live, as your culture does not place the same importance on the symbolic word of GOD as a common bonding tool there, and certainly not Christianity, but cultures are different, so what works in yours, will simply not work in mine, per the science of human nature at this point in time, and as it has existed for thousands and thousands of years.

The only way it will change is if the US suddenly becomes a more homogenous country with a much stronger welfare state extended out into the smallest of rural areas.

In my opinion, that is beyond the case for rationality and logic, as things stand now and even in the distant future.

It's just math; the statistics currently suggest it cannot happen no matter what idealistic notions I may have, as maverick instead of a 'part of the heard of herd'.

And yes, the old religious text repeated in many other metaphorical ways in other philosophies since ancient times of "change the things you can and accept the things you cannot", does apply as part of the rational decision making process.

Folks who want to join the military, logically and realistically will have to suck it up and say the words, if they do not agree with the principle behind it, or idealistically, stand their ground and pursue another career.

It's kind of silly in my mind to place such importance on abstract concepts to rule one's life. Some folks do think rigidly like that, but no, I do not do that anymore. I realize there is always more to the human story than meets my eyes, if I do a little more research, and allow myself to have an open mind.

I go to the Catholic church for human connection with people I have known for decades as I know science shows that is integral to human happiness, and 'by GOD of Nature', that part of it 'dam' sure works.

When they come to the part of the creed that says Jesus is some kind of King of the Universe, I quite my voice whether people like it or not. It's hard enough these days to keep the building fund going, and no, not likely anyone is going to argue it with a 230LB, rather imposing looking guy who is already known to dance a martial arts style in every store in the metro area.

Now to be clear, I am not promoting myself here. But it does make an example that per what we think our problems are in life, often are due to the fact that we do not exercise the freedoms we already have as US citizens, and even as human beings per human nature, here where I live. I go my own way, as my country allows it and protects that right, to an astounding degree now, if one just takes all of their rights and utilizes them as strong individuals, yes literally training themselves to be as strong as they can too, as that is an important part of human nature to be strong, fearless, and free, not unlike any other social animal in any other group.

That is truly the spirit of freedom; giving and taking, is what it takes to truly be free. But if a person does not exercise it within their human nature by becoming as strong as they can and exercising their legal rights, it's truly no one's fault but their own.

I am no victim, I am a victor, as I follow the laws of nature, not silly idealistic ways of culture, including my own, at times as stated above. :)

Knowing who other people are is ?just? as important as knowing who I am. But that is also basic social animal nature; the similar too, for thousands of years that is also losing traction from illusory ways of thinking, against the nature of human being living, in the culture we have in the US now.

Yes, it can be extremely hard to see it is, unless one finds a way to escape culture, like I did through losing effective use of my sight and hearing for years. Kind of a harsh way to do it, and not my choice, but never the less it worked very well for me.

Last edited by aghogday on 14 Sep 2014, 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.