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paolo
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 1089
Location: Italy
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 Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: Family support |
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From what I see here many autistics have wives, husbands, children, relatives and they probably have huge problems in managing their “obligatory” relations. These relations owe something of their durability to the fact that they are in some degree “alliances” for reciprocal support; that is they are founded on some compromise, are in a way also “contractual”, if not in a legal meaning. “Pure” relationships based only mutual understanding , respect and generosity probably do not exist. But is anybody here capable to discuss frankly how much they thrive on mutual need (sex included), taking turns when one is tired or sick and needy of some form of assistance (“can you go down and buy me an aspirin?”). To give some answer requires sincerity and self interrogation and I understand that perhaps it’s not possible to reply point-blank so I leave it as home work at school.
As for me, I must say that I am a total beggar in need. I do not have any relative or friend. There may be some element of envy in putting this question. I live in a stoic attitude, and I find perhaps comfort in some sort of complacency for having been able to meet all problems in self sufficiency , not out of pride or haughtiness, but because I had no other choice. Of course I know I made many compromises myself, but as time passes I am progressively less inclined in the direction of compromise.
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
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0_equals_true
Quack!
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 26
Posts: 4719
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not sure I understand your question. Before I was 20 I didn't need friends. I was sort of around people and would talk to them sometimes. After then I did realise i was missing something and it took a while to figure out. You could say I was in need of some contact. I've learnt to enjoy reciprocating and doing stuff for my friends, even though it takes a lot of effort sometimes to remember. At one point I did think I might be an extrovert because I could be both boisterous as well as mute. However that in itself is not extroversion. Really I prefer around 5-6 days 'me time' and the rest with my friends. it can be tiring being with my family tbh. I would say I prefer to be with my friends more in general. As for getting help. I hate getting help. Sometime I need help. But it can be hard to get help without any strings attached. I like to help my friends out. i know I don't do it in the same way but I want to reciprocate. I want to have someone I can love. I don't know what love is supposed to be to others but to me I would like make them happy that in itself would make me happy, same thing for pleasure (you did ask). I don't like the idea of constraints. I realise that there are circles of friends even though I have only one. I wouldn't want my partner to think they couldn't do things with out me. Mostly I wouldn’t want them to worry about me if they did so. |
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0_equals_true
Quack!
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 26
Posts: 4719
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Family support |
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| paolo wrote: | | As for me, I must say that I am a total beggar in need. I do not have any relative or friend. There may be some element of envy in putting this question. I live in a stoic attitude, and I find perhaps comfort in some sort of complacency for having been able to meet all problems in self sufficiency , not out of pride or haughtiness, but because I had no other choice. Of course I know I made many compromises myself, but as time passes I am progressively less inclined in the direction of compromise. |
That is not necessarily true. Asperger’s is the disposition, the nurture is there also in the events of your life. You will have developed behaviours (without a doubt) that are not impossible to unlearn. It is possible to crave contact and at the same time not want to spend too much time with people. I developed Social Anxiety. Was I the same as the same as the 'average' Socially Anxious person? No. Did the same principles of changing behaviour apply? Yes because they are applied to you. You could change if you wanted to. I can relate to the complacency. The compromise comes how you wish to manage it. |
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Starr
Phoenix
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Joined: Sep 18, 2006
Posts: 4253
Location: the misty mountain
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Family support |
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| paolo wrote: | | From what I see here many autistics have wives, husbands, children, relatives and they probably have huge problems in managing their “obligatory” relations. These relations owe something of their durability to the fact that they are in some degree “alliances” for reciprocal support; that is they are founded on some compromise, are in a way also “contractual”, if not in a legal meaning. “Pure” relationships based only mutual understanding , respect and generosity probably do not exist. But is anybody here capable to discuss frankly how much they thrive on mutual need (sex included), taking turns when one is tired or sick and needy of some form of assistance (“can you go down and buy me an aspirin?”). To give some answer requires sincerity and self interrogation and I understand that perhaps it’s not possible to reply point-blank so I leave it as home work at school. |
Contractual vs Pure...I think a lot of relationships start as 'pure', eg, we fall in love, or we meet someone whom we like who then becomes a friend, then our feelings bind us to that person to some degree, so maybe it then becomes 'contractual' - ie if a friend is in trouble we are bound by the rules of friendship, and because we care about the person and have an emotional attachment to them, to help them, even if it is not really convenient for us to do so.
I don't think a contractual - only relationship could last very long? If I am understanding correctly what you mean by that? If it is a relationship without any feelings or emotional attachment at all, I don't know what would keep the people involved together. Not that one has to love or even like someone to be with them, maybe they are useful to each other, like a thief and his 'fence', lol, but that would be more of a business arrangement?
Families are difficult sometimes. Many years ago I dropped the pretence of liking all members of my family. Some of them I am ambivalent towards, some I get on well with and enjoy spending time with. A few I simply don't like so don't waste their time or mine seeing them. I have several friends who I am a lot closer to, and know a lot better than some of my family.
Marriage, well, my honest opinion is that it involves sometimes major compromise if the two people involved are both to have equal 'importance' - by that I mean, one sees marriages where one person has taken the role of understudy to support their partner. In many cultures and historically in western society, it is/was, of course, the woman. For two people to live so closely together and have equal say in everything, decision-making, finances, kids, careers etc does involve a lot of honest discussion and conscious awareness that both people should have, as far as is possible, their individual needs and wishes taken into account. I am sorry Paolo but I can't resist quoting Jung here  - who said that once love leaves the relationship, the power-drive enters it, and the relationship turns from a reciprocal one into a battleground. I think that's probably true. I've seen it happen with friends who have ended up divorcing.
Hmmm, I think I may have wandered a little off topic here. To get back on it, you said “Pure” relationships based only mutual understanding , respect and generosity probably do not exist. I think they can. A conscious decision can be made to have that kind of relationship. An agreement that 'this is how we want to behave towards each other in our relationship, even if it's not always easy'. And if one can manage it for, oh, say 50% of the time, then that's pretty good going. I don't know if you would call that 'pure' though, as it is to some extent discussed, decided upon, pre-planned, and therefore not completely spontaneous.But the willingness to put your partner's needs/wishes before your own sometimes, starts from love, which maybe you would call 'pure'. |
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paolo
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 1089
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:35 am Post subject: |
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Piecemeal reply to Starr. “I think a lot of relationships start as 'pure', eg, we fall in love”. I’m not sure that falling in love is the start of a “pure” relation. It’ a mysterious business, and even reciprocal crashes don’t initiate durable relations; those durable relations started in the wake of crashes become soon very different things, sometimes very stale or conflictual or both. I am here a little paradox loving in having this idea that, statistically, marriages arranged by families in the Indian way work better than those founded on Western “romantic love”.
I think that all relationship are mixed affairs with some affective component and some contractual element, and it is all right with them. Some adages like “love comes after” have some basis, and anyhow evaluation of character should prevail on sexual attractiveness.
Thieves are often attached to their fences. I think that all cooperative enterprises in the so called underworld require more durable loyalties than “legal” cooperative businesses, just because reliability is not founded on an external power (law, judges, police).
I will answer later to other questions and posts as I have to go down to buy something and I have no fence for errands.
By the way I must confess that my post was motivated initially and in a subterranean way by some envy perhaps, because I seem to be in WP the only person who has practically no “fence”, for errands or anything else. To make clear what I mean, the air conditioner broke down and my house is getting unlivable. I might have to spend the rest of the summer in supermarkets and megastores.
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
--Samuel Beckett |
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Starr
Phoenix
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Joined: Sep 18, 2006
Posts: 4253
Location: the misty mountain
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:56 am Post subject: |
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I hope you find some coolness Paolo! It is horrible to be too hot. Last summer Wales had record high temperatures and we have no air conditioning. I spent a long time lurking around the frozen foods section in our local supermarket.
Today I will be thinking about the great god Eros, how far one has to go back to the source to reach 'purity', and if is possible to find it before love becomes contaminated with unconscious needs and projections/old baggage/the inner child's wish to be taken care of by the 'magical other'...it is a very interesting subject! No quoting of Jung today, it would be too much to suffer - high temperatures plus Jung, lol.
One thought that has occurred to me - just throwing it into the pot - I think we must look behind the 'closed doors' of a marriage to try and see how the people involved really feel. Just because a relationship has lasted a long time doesn't necessarily mean there is any quality within it. One often sees long-married couples bickering and sniping at each other and wonder why they bother staying together. Maybe there is some happiness in the familiarity of it. But perhaps a short, doomed-to-fail, but for a brief time very happy relationship has more actual meaning for the people involved? As I say, just thinking aloud. |
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paolo
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 1089
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Starr wrote: | | Just because a relationship has lasted a long time doesn't necessarily mean there is any quality within it. One often sees long-married couples bickering and sniping at each other and wonder why they bother staying together. |
No, certainly not. There is one sequence of Tati’s Mr.Hulot’s holidays which portrays perfectly the problem of old couples. There is a wife and a husband who walk on a path behind the beach. The wife finds some shells and gives them to the husband saying “look what a marvel”, while she looks for some other shell, the husband throws the shell away with disgust. This lasts for a while. Unfortunately for people who have not seen Tati’s movie this doesn’t say much. It is like narrating a cartoon in words.
As I was having a encounter with the little dog, an encounter resembling very much that of cat and woman in Starr’s avatar, I was asking myself: why we can’t have among humans such “pure” affections. In my country couples split according to the splits of the factional parties to which they belong. That is their loyalties belong more to the faction that to the partner. This is unconceivable in relationships between dog and man, and between dogs. And I prefer dog’s behavioral patterns (!). |
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Starr
Phoenix
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Joined: Sep 18, 2006
Posts: 4253
Location: the misty mountain
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:30 am Post subject: |
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I will post the avatar you refer to in case I change it. I do change them often.
Well, Eros has been no help at all to me, lol. So maybe he is preserving the mystery?
I like Tati very much, but haven't seen that one about Mr Hulot's holiday. I like mime, and talking of purity, it is a very 'pure' method of expression isn't it. Perfect for Aspies! How wonderful to be able to communicate without words. Mine seems to be a dying art, which is a pity. Dance, I enjoy that too, another way of self-expression without using words. (Off topic I know, but never mind.) |
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paolo
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 1089
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Starr wrote: | | How wonderful to be able to communicate without words. |
Yes. without words. I am tempted by sign language, its essentiality or so it seems to me. Much easier to lie with words than with body language. In his five movies Mr.Hulot never says a word. |
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