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Woodpeace
Snowy Owl
Joined: Mar 27, 2008
Posts: 167
Location: Lancashire, England
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 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: British newspaper article on autistic girls and women |
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Very good article in The Guardian yesterday: It's not just boys who are autistic.
http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,,2283569,00.html
Yesterday's print edition of the newspaper states that the Women pages were guest-edited by Bridget Orr who has Asperger syndrome. She chose the subject for the main feature and writes about her own experiences under the heading An atypical girl writes... following the main article. |
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 2926
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I thought it was good too. Ken G has posted it in News and Current Events but here might be more appropriate seeing as is specifically AS orientated media.
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CockneyRebel
Sid The Love Rat :O)
Joined: Jul 18, 2004
Age: 33
Posts: 20754
Location: Out in the evening, with me two best Rat Mates, somewhere in Canada :O)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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I also think that this article is very well written. 
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Sid The Rat is everything that I stand for. We're both large, proud Punkers with Cockney accents. We both have the same issues, as well. I don't see anything wrong, with that. I was put on this planet, to make myself happy. Sid :O) |
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LeKiwi
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Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2201
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thank goodness! I get so sick of people saying to me "But you can't have Asperger's Syndrome - you're a girl!"
Why yes I am. And your point is...? 
We aspie girls are apparently a rare breed... personally I just feel we're under-diagnosed because girls tend to be more sociable than boys and so don't quite fit the stereotype as well.
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Nan
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Location: left coast
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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For women such as this, having their "oddity" validated, acknowledged and, to some extent, explained, can be life-changing. Selina Postgate, 53, always knew she was different: but it was only last summer that she finally found out why. "Knowing I have Asperger's syndrome has changed everything in my world," she says. "It's made me realise who I really am, and why I think differently."
If the diagnosis had come earlier in her life, Postgate believes she would have been a lot more successful. "I've never managed to do the things I've wanted to do," she says. "I've done very little with my life professionally and I could have done a lot more if I'd understood myself."
Nor would it have mattered so much, Postgate argues, if she had been born male - even undiagnosed, men with autism can live a life that is high-performing, acceptable and rewarding, she believes. "At school I was bright, but eccentric. If I had been a boy, that would have been tolerated more. I'd have gone into science, I'm sure - I might have gone on to be a nuclear physicist. I'd have met some girl who would have become my supportive wife and she would have made up for my social shortcomings, in the eyes of the world, and I'd have been the rather odd but brilliant professor who couldn't really handle social occasions but who was always well looked-after by his lovely wife, and who did so many wonderful things at work that none of it mattered anyway.
"Instead of that, though, I have achieved practically nothing. Relationships, like jobs, have gone out of the window - I've not had the self-awareness to hold down either.
Being an autistic woman has been pivotal to everything that's happened to me. If I'd been an autistic man, my story could have been very different."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Exactly.
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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 44
Posts: 4973
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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An interesting article. I also believe that the DX of females is much lower because of the way AS manifests in females in different ways then males. Hormones have to have some effect, as well as different socialization(how others treat us) based on gender. I hope once more accurate DXing is done and more awareness in general by professionals, that someone will do some research in this area. Just like the Freudian trend to see all psychological problems in females as "hysteria", (connected to having a uterus  ), I think the current trend is to label them with depression/Bi-polar/BPD instead of looking at the whole picture of their experiences...no one ever asked me about my sensory issues. and all relationship problems were seen through the lense of (adoption causing trust issues/detachment disorder). They only saw what they were already looking for...proof to their theories and just ignored anything that didn't fit that model.
I thought one of the most "telling" parts of the article was when the "expert" said that girls tend to have more severe autism....logic says to me that those are not accurate numbers because the less sever cases are just being over looked....duh.
(Once again...lack of ToM of AS causes misinterpretation of the data.) I don't think you have to be a genius to apply a little logic to the situation but evidently breaking out of old ways of thinking is a bit challenging...even for the experts.
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LeKiwi
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CanyonWind
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 12, 2006
Posts: 1218
Location: West of the Great Divide
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| Nan wrote: | For women such as this, having their "oddity" validated, acknowledged and, to some extent, explained, can be life-changing. Selina Postgate, 53, always knew she was different: but it was only last summer that she finally found out why. "Knowing I have Asperger's syndrome has changed everything in my world," she says. "It's made me realise who I really am, and why I think differently."
If the diagnosis had come earlier in her life, Postgate believes she would have been a lot more successful. "I've never managed to do the things I've wanted to do," she says. "I've done very little with my life professionally and I could have done a lot more if I'd understood myself."
Nor would it have mattered so much, Postgate argues, if she had been born male - even undiagnosed, men with autism can live a life that is high-performing, acceptable and rewarding, she believes. "At school I was bright, but eccentric. If I had been a boy, that would have been tolerated more. I'd have gone into science, I'm sure - I might have gone on to be a nuclear physicist. I'd have met some girl who would have become my supportive wife and she would have made up for my social shortcomings, in the eyes of the world, and I'd have been the rather odd but brilliant professor who couldn't really handle social occasions but who was always well looked-after by his lovely wife, and who did so many wonderful things at work that none of it mattered anyway.
"Instead of that, though, I have achieved practically nothing. Relationships, like jobs, have gone out of the window - I've not had the self-awareness to hold down either.
Being an autistic woman has been pivotal to everything that's happened to me. If I'd been an autistic man, my story could have been very different."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Exactly. |
Sure, that's exactly how life is for most male aspies.
But I don't have time to say more. My lovely supportive wife says I should go get a little more work done at the nuclear physics lab because a bunch of friends are coming over who think I'm brilliant and don't mind at all that I'm rather odd.
I don't care much about gas prices, since I get a professor's salary for studying nuclear physics.
I sure am lucky I'm not an aspie woman. They have it rough. I might even have to work as a farm laborer so I can eat, and spend all my time alone when I'm not working.
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And fight 'em anymore,
But I ain't a gonna love 'em
And that's for certain sure.
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Purplefluffychainsaw
Deinonychus
Joined: Jul 28, 2005
Age: 19
Posts: 339
Location: Oxford
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:44 am Post subject: |
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My family always bucked this trend. I'm diagnosed, all my sisters are odd, and now Alice is about to finally get diagnosed. My brother's the only normal one!
My own opinion of which sex gets a better deal of it (from aspergers and HFA anyway) is this: women, beyond school. I think it's harder for women to fit in when we're younger, but perhaps for some of us, we learn quicker at how to fit in. I learnt fairly well and fairly quickly, although that was through a really good group of friends.
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CanyonWind
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Joined: Sep 12, 2006
Posts: 1218
Location: West of the Great Divide
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: |
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I don't think that "which gender of aspies has it worse" is a constructive thing to argue about. It's like when people argue about whether Hitler was worse than Stalin.
Both male and female aspies have to deal with a lot of difficulties.
Talking about how gender makes things different could be valuable, as long as it has some connection to reality.
Well, my lovely supportive wife says I gotta go be with my friends at the physics lab so I can win my Nobel Prize; I mean I gotta get my shovel and my rubber boots and fix the irrigation ditch so I can pay my rent.
Hey, it's payday, so I get to talk to the boss for five minutes. First conversation this week.
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I can't take up my rifle
And fight 'em anymore,
But I ain't a gonna love 'em
And that's for certain sure.
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Nan
Phoenix
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Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 2989
Location: left coast
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| CanyonWind wrote: | | Nan wrote: | For women such as this, having their "oddity" validated, acknowledged and, to some extent, explained, can be life-changing. Selina Postgate, 53, always knew she was different: but it was only last summer that she finally found out why. "Knowing I have Asperger's syndrome has changed everything in my world," she says. "It's made me realise who I really am, and why I think differently."
If the diagnosis had come earlier in her life, Postgate believes she would have been a lot more successful. "I've never managed to do the things I've wanted to do," she says. "I've done very little with my life professionally and I could have done a lot more if I'd understood myself."
Nor would it have mattered so much, Postgate argues, if she had been born male - even undiagnosed, men with autism can live a life that is high-performing, acceptable and rewarding, she believes. "At school I was bright, but eccentric. If I had been a boy, that would have been tolerated more. I'd have gone into science, I'm sure - I might have gone on to be a nuclear physicist. I'd have met some girl who would have become my supportive wife and she would have made up for my social shortcomings, in the eyes of the world, and I'd have been the rather odd but brilliant professor who couldn't really handle social occasions but who was always well looked-after by his lovely wife, and who did so many wonderful things at work that none of it mattered anyway. "Instead of that, though, I have achieved practically nothing. Relationships, like jobs, have gone out of the window - I've not had the self-awareness to hold down either.
Being an autistic woman has been pivotal to everything that's happened to me. If I'd been an autistic man, my story could have been very different."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Exactly. |
Sure, that's exactly how life is for most male aspies. But I don't have time to say more. My lovely supportive wife says I should go get a little more work done at the nuclear physics lab because a bunch of friends are coming over who think I'm brilliant and don't mind at all that I'm rather odd. I don't care much about gas prices, since I get a professor's salary for studying nuclear physics. I sure am lucky I'm not an aspie woman. They have it rough. I might even have to work as a farm laborer so I can eat, and spend all my time alone when I'm not working. |
But it is true, for a whole lot of people - I'd be willing to bet on that. I don't believe Ms. P said anything about "how it is for most male aspies" - she was speaking about herself and how her life in the UK could have been if her gender had been male. She was commenting on what her life as someone who was quite bright could have been and wasn't talking about yours and either your intellectual qualities or choice of work/profession/socioeconomic status.
I definitely remember my father and several of his colleagues, who fit this scenario quite well. Back in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, a man could be a totally socially inept bumbler, but if he was brilliant academically or had some other "in-demand" talent, he would have quite a good chance of solid employment at a very good wage in the USA. As such, he'd have been an attractive marriage partner. His wife could, and quite often did in those circles, manage their social manoeverings. My NT mother certainly did her best with my father's career. That was part of the role of "wife" in those eras, at least in the middle and upper-classes in America. (As divorce was frowned upon and women were expected to stay "in the home", I don't believe it would be too much of a conjecture to think that a lot of them stayed in these marriages because of social and financial pressures. Assuming that to be true, it was more incentive for them to further the career of their husbands, as they benefited from any upward mobility either socially or financially.) That particular creation exists today in many military-career couples still - the wife manages the social aspects of her husband's career, makes the necessary connections, and "plays her part".
Being an autistic woman HAS been pivotal to everything that's happened to me (lifting Ms. P's words). And, like Ms. P., had I been male and "brilliant but eccentric" I'd have gotten miles farther than I did as a female who was arguably "brilliant" and definitely "eccentric" in the era in which I was launching my career. As it was, I remember being told "we don't hire women, we hire men who have families to support: go get married and stay home where you belong." [Like I'm breeding stock? How nice.] "We don't hire women, you're just going to get pregnant and quit anyway." [That was pretty insulting on several levels.] "We prefer to hire people who are not emotional, and you know how women are." [Well, yeah, I'd have to just cry every day at 2pm for propriety's sake, I guess.] "Well, girls just can't handle math and science, so why don't we just sign you up for home ec?"[I'd just won the school science fair, but that wasn't good enough because I was obviously not competent enough to be on the "boys only" county academic competition team.] Literally, I was told these things to my face. And way, way more than that - but that happened to NT females as well as Aspie/Autie females, so it's a different path than this discussion is headed towards.
So, yes. I'll agree with her comments. EXACTLY. How different my life could have (and probably would have) been had I had someone smoothing over the social and political aspects of society and career for me. I needed a wife. Still do, when it comes down to it.
I don't believe there was any argument about "which gender of aspies has it worse", only a comment on how it was for Ms. P, me, and other aspie females who might feel like commenting.
It is rather interesting that you assumed there was an argument, however. So where did THAT come from? 
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Novinson's Revolutionary Discovery: When comes the revolution, things will be different - not better, just different. |
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krex
Phoenix
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Age: 44
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Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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For every Einstein there was thousands of other aspie males who were working in factories or manuel labor because they didn't have the social skills to "net-work" . Some of those were lucky enough to fall into their fathers business, where they didn't have to worry about making the right impressions to apply for a job but I imagine most ended up doing manuel labor inspite of their intelligence. I think it is harder for both males and females today, then it would have been in the past, as the importance of social net-working, job interviews and social skills are all more valued today....we live in a service economy.
There are women scientist and writers from 100 years ago, but I think the majority came from wealthy families that allowed them to be "excentric". Aspie females who cam from poverty were most likely going to end up doing drudge work or prostitution if they didn't have the "social graces" or dowery to attract a mate.
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Just because one plane is flying out of formation, doesnt mean the formation is on course....R.D.Lang
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CanyonWind
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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I find it impossible to comprehend how somebody could spend a couple of years around wrongplanet, making a couple of thousand posts in the process, without learning anything about the reality of asperger's.
I guess you haven't noticed that my circumstances are nothing unusual. There's an awful lot of male aspies working at any job they can get because it's preferable to having no income at all. No gender bias here. A lot of female aspies are in exactly the same situation. Employment is a major problem for many aspies of both genders.
There are several possible explanations for this. One possible explanation is that aspies are much dumber than the general population, so they're not qualified for any job that involves thinking. Another possibility is that it's an unnoticed symptom of Asperger's that aspies are much lazier than the general population, so they don't make good workers.
There's a third possibility; it might be that people don't like being around people they don't like being around. That whether you're on a construction crew or a university faculty, that success has more to do with the quality called "personality" than anything else.
If asperger's did not carry with it a deficiency in "personality," that is non-verbal communication skills, asperger's would be an unmixed blessing.
Sure, there was Einstein. What that has to do with my life, I have no idea. I'm not Einstein.
If you were a male aspie, you'd be a male aspie.
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I can't take up my rifle
And fight 'em anymore,
But I ain't a gonna love 'em
And that's for certain sure.
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Anemone
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Age: 43
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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For people who are not autistic, women earn much less than men. For people who are autistic? Who knows? Perhaps it levels the playing field (i.e. we're all really badly off). I know that girls in general do better in school and worse in real life, as did I. I know that boys do worse in school and better in life. Same for male autists? I'll assume not, but I don't know.
The thing is, though, that there is this myth out there that autistic people ought to be cleaning up in science/technology, and for women this is much harder. In the past I think it was easier for autistic people to hold down a job, because work was more structured than it is now. But it was harder for women to have a career (although you could be a nurse or teacher if you could manage). Now that it is easier for women to have a career, it's harder for autistic people overall. And it's still harder for women in male dominated fields.
Plus, overall, autism presents different problems for women than for men because of social role expectations (also true for ADHD).
I think the real issue is that there is so little research on autistic adults that we really don't know much, and everyone's fighting myths. |
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pbcoll
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Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 1636
Location: England
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| krex wrote: | For every Einstein there was thousands of other aspie males who were working in factories or manuel labor because they didn't have the social skills to "net-work" . Some of those were lucky enough to fall into their fathers business, where they didn't have to worry about making the right impressions to apply for a job but I imagine most ended up doing manuel labor inspite of their intelligence. I think it is harder for both males and females today, then it would have been in the past, as the importance of social net-working, job interviews and social skills are all more valued today....we live in a service economy.
There are women scientist and writers from 100 years ago, but I think the majority came from wealthy families that allowed them to be "excentric". Aspie females who cam from poverty were most likely going to end up doing drudge work or prostitution if they didn't have the "social graces" or dowery to attract a mate. |
Yeah, I find this snobbery of 'aspies are Einsteins' rather nauseating - most of us, while not stupid, are not Einsteins. And plenty of geniuses, including physicists, were NTs with good social skills. Even in a science department, those with good social skills have it easier than similarly qualified people with poor social skills.
I think it's definitely gotten worse in terms of employment - if you go back far enough, physical strength was just about the only qualification necessary for the vast majority of people. Less far back, a little bit of 'book learning', such as being literate, was enough to guarantee you a job. But now, with most of the world having a large surplus of skilled labour, being skilled labour isn't enough and that's where social skills come in. That puts us at a huge disadvantage when competing for non-manual jobs, and much manual labour now requires good fine motor skllls.
I think in employment male and female aspies have it much harder than our NT counterparts. In the specific case of academia, I have no doubt that it is much harder for women to get a job in England, and probably in every country in the world. But aspie women's problems wouldn't have magically disappeared if they'd been men.
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