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| What is the purpose of law? |
| Justice!! |
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3% |
[ 1 ] |
| Reflection of society's will!! |
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10% |
[ 3 ] |
| Societal Order!! |
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51% |
[ 15 ] |
| Evil!! |
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17% |
[ 5 ] |
| Other!! |
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17% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 29 |
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Message |
Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5401
Location: United States
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 Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: What is the purpose of law? |
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Simple question, here are the options:
Law is a tool to enforce justice, and thus is a moral force for society. This means that laws exist because the actions prohibited are morally wrong. For example: murder and rape are evil therefore we have/should have laws against them.
Law is a tool to enforce society's will upon members of it. This means that the reason for laws is because our government has decided that certain actions are not desired. For example: polygamy is outlawed, because we believe in monogamy.
Law is a tool to maintain societal order. This means that laws exist to allow large groups of people to coexist in peace. For example: property rights exist to allow for different people to lead relatively independent existences without much quarrel over resources.
Law is a tool for evil. This means that laws are not necessary(or often not) but rather imposed for the good of certain groups. For example: certain taxi laws in New York are not meant for any public good or justice but rather are simply a way to make the existing taxi drivers richer by removing potential members of the profession.
Any other ideas for the purpose of law? |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3034
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Ideally, it would be for societal order. Justice and enforcing society's will can be seen as a subset of maintaining societal order. Evil is what laws are often used for, but I wouldn't say that is the sole purpose.
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WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 1453
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm caught as to their current iteration or an ideal situation... at present, I feel they are used to inflict societal will, whereas in a more-perfect world their purpose would be to maintain social order. So at this time... no vote.
M.
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He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
From my heart and from my hand, why don't people understand my intentions...?
Why choose a lesser evil? Vote Cthulhu 2008! |
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Apple_in_my_Eye
Snowy Owl
Joined: May 08, 2008
Age: 39
Posts: 131
Location: Lake of Fire
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Those aren't mutually exclusive groups, so I put "other."
Other reasons for laws (I imagine that most laws don't exist for any high-minded reasons):
 business advantage; PanAm's attempts in the 50's (?) to have the airline industry regulated such that they'd would've ended up a monopoly
blocking competition by making something illegal, but with a loophole to allow one group exclusive control (similar to above)
political gain by advocating a law to "get tough on crime" (or "war on drugs," or etc. etc.)
to give one group power over another, i.e. "right to work" laws against unions
criminalizing trivial things creates business for the prison services and other industries
to enforce hatred; banning various forms of marriage (interracial, gay, etc.)
to amass power; the PATRIOT acts, enacting "emergency powers," etc. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5401
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Apple, couldn't we lump all of those purposes into "evil"? All of those purposes you have listed are to give certain groups advantages at the cost of everyone else. This is not to say that I am trying to make a moral statement as I am not trying to get into the literal ethics of this, but each are similar to New York capping the number of taxi drivers as to allow them to all get higher wages. |
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Apple_in_my_Eye
Snowy Owl
Joined: May 08, 2008
Age: 39
Posts: 131
Location: Lake of Fire
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I suppose. Maybe I'm missing the point. The thing is "evil" can depend on whether you are in the group that benefits or not. I.e. A lot of businesspeople like anti-union laws. |
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greenblue
¸.·´´¯`··.¸.·´
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 7084
Location: Home
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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I believe that the four options are part of the whole purpose of law, not just one.
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Maybe none of it was real. Perhaps we were all part of a shared illusion. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5401
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Apple_in_my_Eye wrote: | | I suppose. Maybe I'm missing the point. The thing is "evil" can depend on whether you are in the group that benefits or not. I.e. A lot of businesspeople like anti-union laws. |
Well, I know that, that will always be true, but the term "evil" is just reflective of a case where laws are not for social good, justice, maintenance of order, but rather private gain. I know that there are varying views on "evil" and like I said, I am not trying to promote a moral view, but I thought that "evil" was a shorter way to suggest "the private benefits of a few at the cost of many". |
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makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 1453
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | Apple_in_my_Eye wrote: | | I suppose. Maybe I'm missing the point. The thing is "evil" can depend on whether you are in the group that benefits or not. I.e. A lot of businesspeople like anti-union laws. |
Well, I know that, that will always be true, but the term "evil" is just reflective of a case where laws are not for social good, justice, maintenance of order, but rather private gain. I know that there are varying views on "evil" and like I said, I am not trying to promote a moral view, but I thought that "evil" was a shorter way to suggest "the private benefits of a few at the cost of many". |
It's a subjective to call it evil; your second option is much clearer and direct.
M.
_________________
He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
From my heart and from my hand, why don't people understand my intentions...?
Why choose a lesser evil? Vote Cthulhu 2008! |
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 2893
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think it is any of the above specified exactly, because it is actually an emergent thing, a bit like ads or media, which tells us, in "stories" of punishment happening to a few representative people, what is bad and what is good behaviour, and is perpetuated, with revisions and amendment to it like any story through the ages, because people are interested in the drama and support it, and pay attention to it, especially when it is about something very "exciting"/suspenseful like a child-disappearance-case etc, in order to "find out" who is the baddie.
I suppose that might fit under "social control/maintaining order in large groups of people" , because that was one of the original functions of storytelling, teaching people in a group how to live together, broadcasting/affirming the group's values. It tells people what is bad and what is good, and by its mutable nature expresses changes in the society's attitudes too.
Not sure if qualifies as a tool though, because I think it is emergent, an expression of society's workings which teaches by example. Its function, rather than purpose, is that of a moral tale/story-telling machine.
A reflection maybe , but not of the government's will particularly, or not necessarily.
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"Life is pain; anyone who says different is selling something"
Last edited by ouinon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:56 pm; edited 7 times in total |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5401
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| makuranososhi wrote: |
It's a subjective to call it evil; your second option is much clearer and direct.
M. |
It is only subjective depending upon your metaethical theories, evil being subjective is only true for moral relativists. But, to get to the point: yes, I absolutely know! The issue is that "evil" is shorter to say. To be honest, few people actually promote rent-seeking/selfish behaviors so I did not think that anyone would be so deeply concerned about the ethics of the terminology to care. I could have included "the purpose of law is to promote my own interests", but the issue would have been that so many others seek their own interests through the law that it could be argued that all of this self-seeking behavior actually reduced overall welfare for all participants anyway, and thus few would actually support the law for that reason unless other, more pressing reasons existed. Could this be considered an oversight? Perhaps. Is this really a big oversight? Not really, compared to other polls that actually include purposive bias in them. |
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twoshots
Stranger
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 1339
Location: NJ
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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For great justice.
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Without logic reason is useless.
With it, you can win arguments and alienate multitudes. |
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 4877
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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What are the "laws" of the human body and why do they exist? How can the laws of the human body, anatomy, biology, etc., relate to the laws of a state?
They are both in place to promote health. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5401
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | What are the "laws" of the human body and why do they exist? How can the laws of the human body, anatomy, biology, etc., relate to the laws of a state?
They are both in place to promote health. |
The issue is how we understand health in the context of society. The body though, does not have laws at all. It has chemical reactions that *must* work as necessary to. Completely impersonal... which makes sense as there are no persons in the body. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3034
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | slowmutant wrote: | What are the "laws" of the human body and why do they exist? How can the laws of the human body, anatomy, biology, etc., relate to the laws of a state?
They are both in place to promote health. |
The issue is how we understand health in the context of society. The body though, does not have laws at all. It has chemical reactions that *must* work as necessary to. Completely impersonal... which makes sense as there are no persons in the body. |
I believe Jonathan Swift made a rather comical analogy of the human body with the body politic in Gulliver's Travels. Or rather, he satirized people who attempted to draw such comparisons in the hope of making any significant progress in governing practice.
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FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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