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| Problem of evil? |
| Unresolvable, god does not exist. |
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8% |
[ 3 ] |
| There is a greater good, not free will though |
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11% |
[ 4 ] |
| Free men means evil men |
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14% |
[ 5 ] |
| I believe God cannot stop evil |
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5% |
[ 2 ] |
| I believe the question is stupid |
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20% |
[ 7 ] |
| Other/I wanna see the results |
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40% |
[ 14 ] |
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| Total Votes : 35 |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5733
Location: United States
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 Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:00 pm Post subject: God and the problem of evil |
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1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn't exist.
This problem has been around for centuries, but how do we resolve it? Can WP provide the answer??
Some people attack premise 1, that God is omniscient or omnipotent, resulting in theologies such as Open Theism or even allowing for traditional dualistic theologies. Others attack premise 4 claiming that evil exists for a greater good(free will/something else). Finally others attack the entire notion of having this argument pop up. How should we look at the problem of evil? As the death of God? Do we say that a greater good exists, and what is it and why is it so?
To get us started, here are 2 views.
http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=60&TopicID=3&CategoryID=3
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/niclas_berggren/theodicy.html
Not perfect perhaps, and I would be willing to change my examples if better non-youtube examples were given. |
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Adrenaline
Snowy Owl
Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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First and foremost the question should be,
that if a god exists,
WHAT IS GOD.
If all existence was created by/from god then it had to all issue forth out of god,
therefore all existence is a part of god, even us.
if god is being and all that exists came from god, then nothingness is not god.
therefore, even evil is a part of god and has its place and use in existence,
unless evil in its self is nothingness,
and even then, it would have its place,
for god could not have brought existence into nothingness if nothingness did not exist.
and even that question is rhetorical, for nothingness could not have been nothingness if
god existed in it because it then would have been at least something, or something in it.
bringing out the being of nothingness into existance.
and more so, if nothingness existed along with god before all else was created,
then would not nothingness also be greater then god for it held gods existsnce?
Other questions come along with these.
for instance, if god created the universe, and before that all time and space did not exist,
then would not all existance have been created all at once?
and if so why it take god 6 days to creat the earth when all existance was created with but one word?
in fact how could there even been a word if even sound and space did not exist?
to utter even a word or a breath then even time would have had to exist.
which brings into question what did come into existance first?
I can go on and on if you like 
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 3161
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: |
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I think that neither good nor evil exists; they are both social constructs. But many people continue to believe in them, like they believe in god, though for different reasons.
I know why I choose to believe in god, that's covered on another thread.  And the belief definitely has nothing to do with good or evil. The two are not connected.
Except, that is, when I start projecting, ( my "stuff" onto god , a sort of transference, like supposedly happens in psychoanalysis), and then the good-evil judgement starts happening. And it isn't good. 
I don't think there is any intrinsic inevitable link between belief in god and the constructs of good and evil, but that certain religion's tendency to personify god, to imagine god like a super-powerful elder of the tribe, and the presentation of Ten Commandments, ( someone had been projecting unhealthily ), has led to the two being connected.
It was a seriously disastrous day when this got applied to thoughts aswell as actions, in the meeting between eastern and western religions.
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"Life is pain; anyone who says different is selling something" |
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BazzaMcKenzie
Wild colonial man
Joined: Aug 22, 2006
Age: 48
Posts: 3695
Location: the Antipodes
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil."
The student became quiet before such an answer.
The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.
Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"
"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.
The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody and every object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat.
The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"
The professor responded, "Of course it does".
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"
Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. "These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
The young mans name --- Albert Einstein |
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I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 3161
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:59 am Post subject: |
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The problem with that reply, that evil is the absence of god, is that it suggests very strongly that everybody not believing in god, everyone not aware of "god's love", is "in" evil.
The trouble is that Einstein dodged the "problem of evil" by wielding "god" as if it were something that "existed" like heat or light.
It is pure value judgement, doubly pernicious in that is presented in a pseudo-scientific way, by a science wizard, as if a science wizard necessarily knows all about god too.
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"Life is pain; anyone who says different is selling something" |
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burnse22
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Posts: 514
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| BazzaMcKenzie wrote: | | Quote: | "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil."
The student became quiet before such an answer.
The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.
Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"
"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.
The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody and every object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat.
The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"
The professor responded, "Of course it does".
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"
Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. "These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
The young mans name --- Albert Einstein |
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Oh, Snopes, save us: http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp
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"Was that the bad thing?"
"Floss is boss. Floss is boss! FLOSS IS BOSS!!!" |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5733
Location: United States
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| Right, well, one of the issues with that apologetic from the Christian perspective is Matt 12:25-26, where it shows the idea that Satan has a kingdom that can be divided upon itself, which would seem to show that evil is something, a kingdom, as opposed to nothing. Not only that, but even if evil is not an essence in and of itself, we could then call the problem of evil to be the problem of insufficient good and bring up many of the same points. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5733
Location: United States
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| _ wrote: | First and foremost the question should be,
that if a god exists,
WHAT IS GOD. |
As I would argue, most who believe in a god have some definition.
| Quote: | If all existence was created by/from god then it had to all issue forth out of god,
therefore all existence is a part of god, even us.
if god is being and all that exists came from god, then nothingness is not god.
therefore, even evil is a part of god and has its place and use in existence,
unless evil in its self is nothingness,
and even then, it would have its place, |
Well, being created does not mean being a part of him, only serving his cause and that is assuming that he is powerful enough to control his creation. That evil has a place in god's creation? Possible. Liebniz argued so. However, we can also argue that evil is a result of variate morality such as found in free will.
| Quote: | for god could not have brought existence into nothingness if nothingness did not exist.
and even that question is rhetorical, for nothingness could not have been nothingness if
god existed in it because it then would have been at least something, or something in it.
bringing out the being of nothingness into existance.
and more so, if nothingness existed along with god before all else was created,
then would not nothingness also be greater then god for it held gods existsnce? |
Well, the issue is that nothingness might not have existed as nothingness does not have to exist in and of itself. If there was no universe for nothingness to exist in, then where would nothingness exist.
| Quote: | Other questions come along with these.
for instance, if god created the universe, and before that all time and space did not exist,
then would not all existance have been created all at once? |
From God's perspective, yes, that argument is completely valid.
| Quote: | and if so why it take god 6 days to creat the earth when all existance was created with but one word?
in fact how could there even been a word if even sound and space did not exist?
to utter even a word or a breath then even time would have had to exist.
which brings into question what did come into existance first? |
Well, the issue is where the 6 days are. If 6 days are days for the universe to develop then there is no problem, and that is the common interpretation. Time not existing for god does not mean that time does not exist in the universe. The word, well, we can assume that it is implicit that God made the medium first, or we can assume that this is metaphorical, and we can also assume that it speaks of a projection of god into creation, rather god in and of himself.
| Quote: |
I can go on and on if you like
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I've seen enough of these arguments so I really do not care. I have a friend who is an open theist, and a few arminians and calvinists as friends as well, so I have been exposed to various Christian views on god that vary on these issues.
Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kaleido
On an extended tea break
Joined: Feb 19, 2007
Age: 50
Posts: 2225
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| It is often said that good arises from evil even if we have to wait awhile for it to surface, therefore the word 'evil' is a label given to a situation/person at any given moment in time and things can change. I believe it is the action of God within us that helps us recognize those moments of evil and the action of God within us (whatever the word 'god' means to each person individually) that can help us make the changes. |
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Speckles
Velociraptor
Joined: May 03, 2008
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, I have heard of a model that allows god to be omni-benevolent, omni-potent, and for there to be evil in the world. The best way to sum it up is that we're all in a MMOG.
Essentially, it assumes that we all existed before we were born, as spirits or something, and knowingly agreed to come into this life. You can even take the model a step further and assume that we picked what kind of life we would have.
In this model, the world isn't so much evil as it is challenging. We're here for the lulz, or because we want the experience, or something else.
All you have to do is remove hell, and IMO you've got a scenario that solves all three assertions. Of course, this doesn't actually prove anything. Making stuff up that might make something work isn't very good logic. |
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Griff
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: God and the problem of evil |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | 1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn't exist.
This problem has been around for centuries, but how do we resolve it? Can WP provide the answer?? |
Alter premise 1 such that God is a mere demiurge.
A god who is powerful yet imperfect.
Resolved.
This is a very poor argument. Theists love to portray atheists as wholly reliant upon it, so they can smugly point out Job 2:10. Anytime I hear this premise being imposed upon me, my fingers involuntarily ball up into a fist. It is one of the most annoying stereotypes imaginable.
I have perfectly good reasons for being an atheist. This isn't one of them.
You want to completely lose my interest in a conversation about religion? Start out with, "You think that God is the source of all your troubles?" No, asshole. I don't.
Last edited by Griff on Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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burnse22
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Posts: 514
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: God and the problem of evil |
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| Griff wrote: | Alter premise 1 such that God is a mere demiurge.
A god who is powerful yet imperfect.
Resolved. |
But can an imperfect being still be described as God?
_________________
"Was that the bad thing?"
"Floss is boss. Floss is boss! FLOSS IS BOSS!!!" |
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Griff
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: God and the problem of evil |
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| burnse22 wrote: | | Griff wrote: | Alter premise 1 such that God is a mere demiurge.
A god who is powerful yet imperfect.
Resolved. |
But can an imperfect being still be described as God? |
Or demiurge. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5733
Location: United States
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: God and the problem of evil |
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| Griff wrote: | Alter premise 1 such that God is a mere demiurge.
A god who is powerful yet imperfect.
Resolved. |
Not necessarily. The specific argument can be taken away, but one of my links offered attacks the idea of open theism, and notions of a dualist god can either have issues with defining what morality is, or perhaps with dealing with the problems in the nature moral goodness such as found in the Euthyphro dilemma.
| Quote: |
This is a very poor argument. Theists love to portray atheists as wholly reliant upon it, so they can smugly point out Job 2:10. Anytime I hear this premise being imposed upon me, my fingers involuntarily ball up into a fist. It is one of the most annoying stereotypes imaginable. |
I disagree. The argument is a very strong argument as it can force the theist to accept ideas that are usually considered rather untenable, such as the notion that God ordained the fall, and other things which stand against the usual conception of God, while at the same time often forcing the theist to make arguments from ignorance. Theists like to portray atheists as being anything that can be ridiculed, the fact of the matter is that they cannot prove their conception of God as rational, and combined with elements of "the problem of good" such as the is-ought problem, argument from queerness, and perhaps even divine command theory, then atheism could effectively be justified without going into any further epistemological, metaphysical, or hermeneutical issues, simply as the dismissal of the concept of God as odious.
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I have perfectly good reasons for being an atheist. This isn't one of them.
You want to completely lose my interest in a conversation about religion? Start out with, "You think that God is the source of all your troubles?" No, asshole. I don't. |
So, you think that God is the source of all of your troubles? |
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 4713
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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