 
Support Wrong Planet Awareness!
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
t0
Deinonychus
Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 341
|
 Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:19 am Post subject: Fringe autism treatment could get federal study |
 |
|
| Quote: | CHICAGO - Pressured by desperate parents, government researchers are pushing to test an unproven treatment on autistic children, a move some scientists see as an unethical experiment in voodoo medicine.
The treatment removes heavy metals from the body and is based on the fringe theory that mercury in vaccines triggers autism — a theory never proved and rejected by mainstream science. Mercury hasn't been in childhood vaccines since 2001, except for certain flu shots.
|
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25591927/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
kip
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 14, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 632
Location: Las Vegas NV USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
I just found this on Yahoo.
And it ticks me off.
Did anyone else read the line talking about BRAIN DAMAGE in rats? And now some f-tard in some sort of fancy position has decided maybe it'd be a good idea to round up a bunch of INNOCENT kids, none of whom are old enough to know whats going on, and test this crap?
If it's such an awesome cure, and the whole spectrum is caused by metals blocking neural pathways, then wouldn't it work just as well in ADULTS?
Maybe we should see how much these parents enjoy the anal repository mode of treatment. Maybe all that mercury is blocking their ability to think clearly.
_________________
The two loudest sounds in the world are a click when you should hear a bang, and a bang when you should hear a click.
You can purchase anything off the Internet except common sense. |
|
| Back to top |
|
CanyonWind
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 12, 2006
Posts: 1221
Location: West of the Great Divide
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
I imagine the study's going to be funded by the multi-billion dollar vaccine manufacturers who make huge political campaign contributions, and conducted by the medical scientists who insisted that every kid had to be vaccinated against everything in the universe.
Sorry, I forgot, the term is "mainstream science."
I wonder what they'll come up with.
_________________
I can't take up my rifle
And fight 'em anymore,
But I ain't a gonna love 'em
And that's for certain sure.
-traditional |
|
| Back to top |
|
monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 1920
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Doing a controlled trial to get an answer seems to me better than leaving the situation murky. If chelation therapy doesn't work but there is no clear evidence of that, more families will use it in the long run. So research would give a better idea if it doesn't work. If it does help with some of the symptoms, then people should know that as well.
| kip wrote: |
Did anyone else read the line talking about BRAIN DAMAGE in rats?
|
Yeah, but at what levels?
| kip wrote: |
If it's such an awesome cure, and the whole spectrum is caused by metals blocking neural pathways, then wouldn't it work just as well in ADULTS?
|
Probably not. Adults can't learn a language as well as kids ... the plasticity of the brain decreases with time under normal circumstances. There are a whole series of developmental steps that a person goes through, and if they are impaired by whatever, then it causes permanent changes. If heavy metals are a big factor and a person lives with that for their first two decades, that sets a pattern for life. Of course, we don't know to what degree heavy metals are involved.
There are examples of chelation therapy improving brain/nerve function in adults, but they were probably suffering from recent accumulation of metals in the brain.
| Quote: | Mov Disord. 2008 Apr 30;23(6):904-7
Regression of symptoms after selective iron chelation therapy in a case of neurodegeneration with brain iron accumulation.
Forni GL, Balocco M, Cremonesi L, Abbruzzese G, Parodi RC, Marchese R.
Centro della Microcitemia e Anemie Congenite, Ospedale Galliera, Genoa, Italy. gianluca.forni@galliera.it
We report the results of iron chelating treatment with deferiprone in a 61-year-old woman with signs and symptoms of neurodegeneration with brain iron accumulation (NBIA). After 6 months of therapy the patient's gait had improved and a reduction in the incidence of choreic dyskinesias was observed. Her gait returned to normal after an additional 2 months of therapy, at which time there was a further reduction in involuntary movements and a partial resolution of the blepharospasm. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 1920
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Fringe autism treatment could get federal study |
|
|
True. And there is no evidence that autism has gone down since mercury was eliminated from vaccines.
That is very, very different from the statement that metabolism of heavy metals appears to be different in people with autism, or that a majority of mercury in the body comes from dietary sources. Even if the idea that mercury in vaccines affects the autism rate is wrong, that doesn't mean that heavy metals are not part of the problem, or that chelation (which may have other effects on the body, quite apart from metals) might not have an beneficial effect.
| Quote: | J Child Neurol. 2007 Nov;22(11):1308-11.
Blood levels of mercury are related to diagnosis of autism: a reanalysis of an important data set.
Desoto MC, Hitlan RT.
Department of Psychology, University of Northern Iowa, Cedar Falls, Iowa 50614, USA. cathy.desoto@uni.edu
The question of what is leading to the apparent increase in autism is of great importance. Like the link between aspirin and heart attack, even a small effect can have major health implications. If there is any link between autism and mercury, it is absolutely crucial that the first reports of the question are not falsely stating that no link occurs. We have reanalyzed the data set originally reported by Ip et al. in 2004 and have found that the original p value was in error and that a significant relation does exist between the blood levels of mercury and diagnosis of an autism spectrum disorder. Moreover, the hair sample analysis results offer some support for the idea that persons with autism may be less efficient and more variable at eliminating mercury from the blood. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 1920
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | J Toxicol Environ Health A. 2007 Jun;70(12):1046-51.
Mercury, lead, and zinc in baby teeth of children with autism versus controls.
Adams JB, Romdalvik J, Ramanujam VM, Legator MS.
Chemical and Materials Engineering, Arizona State University, Tempe, Arizona, USA.
This study determined the level of mercury, lead, and zinc in baby teeth of children with autism spectrum disorder (n = 15, age 6.1 +/- 2.2 yr) and typically developing children (n = 11, age = 7 +/- 1.7 yr). Children with autism had significantly (2.1-fold) higher levels of mercury but similar levels of lead and similar levels of zinc. Children with autism also had significantly higher usage of oral antibiotics during their first 12 mo of life, and possibly higher usage of oral antibiotics during their first 36 mo of life. Baby teeth are a good measure of cumulative exposure to toxic metals during fetal development and early infancy, so this study suggests that children with autism had a higher body burden of mercury during fetal/infant development. Antibiotic use is known to almost completely inhibit excretion of mercury in rats due to alteration of gut flora. Thus, higher use of oral antibiotics in the children with autism may have reduced their ability to excrete mercury, and hence may partially explain the higher level in baby teeth. Higher usage of oral antibiotics in infancy may also partially explain the high incidence of chronic gastrointestinal problems in individuals with autism.
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
roguetech
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 34
Posts: 340
Location: Climax
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| monty wrote: | Mov Disord. 2008 Apr 30;23(6):904-7
Regression of symptoms after selective iron chelation therapy in a case of neurodegeneration with brain iron accumulation.
Forni GL, Balocco M, Cremonesi L, Abbruzzese G, Parodi RC, Marchese R.
Centro della Microcitemia e Anemie Congenite, Ospedale Galliera, Genoa, Italy. gianluca.forni@galliera.it
We report the results of iron chelating treatment with deferiprone in a 61-year-old woman with signs and symptoms of neurodegeneration with brain iron accumulation (NBIA). After 6 months of therapy the patient's gait had improved and a reduction in the incidence of choreic dyskinesias was observed. Her gait returned to normal after an additional 2 months of therapy, at which time there was a further reduction in involuntary movements and a partial resolution of the blepharospasm. |
Got to love studies of one. It has a 100% success rate. And since it's clearly relevant to Autism Spectrum, mercury contamination, the use of edetate calcium disodium (on children), didn't kill someone, and didn't even prevent them from improving in certain areas, it sounds like it must work.
Last edited by roguetech on Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
roguetech
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 34
Posts: 340
Location: Climax
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| monty wrote: | | Quote: | J Toxicol Environ Health A. 2007 Jun;70(12):1046-51.
Mercury, lead, and zinc in baby teeth of children with autism versus controls.
Adams JB, Romdalvik J, Ramanujam VM, Legator MS.
Chemical and Materials Engineering, Arizona State University, Tempe, Arizona, USA.
This study determined the level of mercury, lead, and zinc in baby teeth of children with autism spectrum disorder (n = 15, age 6.1 +/- 2.2 yr) and typically developing children (n = 11, age = 7 +/- 1.7 yr). Children with autism had significantly (2.1-fold) higher levels of mercury but similar levels of lead and similar levels of zinc. Children with autism also had significantly higher usage of oral antibiotics during their first 12 mo of life, and possibly higher usage of oral antibiotics during their first 36 mo of life. Baby teeth are a good measure of cumulative exposure to toxic metals during fetal development and early infancy, so this study suggests that children with autism had a higher body burden of mercury during fetal/infant development. Antibiotic use is known to almost completely inhibit excretion of mercury in rats due to alteration of gut flora. Thus, higher use of oral antibiotics in the children with autism may have reduced their ability to excrete mercury, and hence may partially explain the higher level in baby teeth. Higher usage of oral antibiotics in infancy may also partially explain the high incidence of chronic gastrointestinal problems in individuals with autism.
|
|
| Quote: | | A decreased ability to excrete mercury is consistent with a recent study by Holmes et al. (2003), which found that children with autism had only one-eighth the normal amount of mercury in their baby hair (assuming that the level in hair is indicative of the level of ability to excrete mercury). |
Ironic. More mercury in teeth means AS is caused by mercury. Less mercury in hair means AS (that is caused by mercury) decreases excretion of mercury into hair.
Study is based on parental reports of 42 children conducted over 20 years ago, comes to baffling conclusions, and has been thoroughly bullsh*tted.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/119/1/e61
It's also of questionable relevance to chelation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 1920
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| roguetech wrote: | Ironic. More mercury in teeth means AS is caused by mercury. Less mercury in hair means AS (that is caused by mercury) decreases excretion of mercury into hair.
|
Not ironic. All these studies point to the idea that heavy metal metabolism is different in ASD and NT groups - less is excreted into the hair, more is held in the teeth (and likely other tissues). If heavy metal metabolism is impaired in ASDs, then it is plausible to suggest that chelation may be of some value in reducing the development of some symptoms. Worth further investigations, IMO.
| roguetech wrote: | | Got to love studies of one. It has a 100% success rate. And since it's clearly relevant to Autism Spectrum, mercury contamination, the use of edetate calcium disodium (on children), didn't kill someone, and didn't even prevent them from improving in certain areas, it sounds like it must work. |
So is it your opinion that chelators can never be of value in treating neurological conditions? I did not suggest that chelation 'must work' for ASDs - I don't know. It was posted in response to a prior comment; congratulations for taking it out of context and mis-characterizing it. Your snide comments prove only one thing: that you are snide. |
|
| Back to top |
|
roguetech
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 34
Posts: 340
Location: Climax
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| monty wrote: | | Not ironic. All these studies point to the idea that heavy metal metabolism is different in ASD and NT groups - less is excreted into the hair, more is held in the teeth (and likely other tissues). If heavy metal metabolism is impaired in ASDs, then it is plausible to suggest that chelation may be of some value in reducing the development of some symptoms. Worth further investigations, IMO. |
"All those studies" (one study that's been discredited - or at least that's been sourced in this thread) do not point at any such thing. "Heavy metal metabolism" could be "impaired", improved, or just different. It could be causal or not. And, of course, it could be a complete myth, a symptom of bad (and very little) science.
| monty wrote: | | So is it your opinion that chelators can never be of value in treating neurological conditions? I did not suggest that chelation 'must work' for ASDs - I don't know. It was posted in response to a prior comment; congratulations for taking it out of context and mis-characterizing it. Your snide comments prove only one thing: that you are snide. |
My statement was pretty clear. Posting a single case of an adult with a different issue having a different treatment was "taking it out of context". I was simply pointing that out. |
|
| Back to top |
|
DeaconBlues
They call Alabama the Crimson Tide - call me...
Joined: Apr 22, 2007
Posts: 1428
Location: Earth, mostly
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Italian story dealt with a case of neurological deterioration, not neuroanatomical differences. My brain is not "deteriorating" - it's just using a non-standard construction. Within the parameters of that construction, its operations are perfectly normal.
See, there's the basic problem with the mercury hypothesis - it assumes that if it weren't for an outside substance acting as some sort of neurosuppressor, all these autistic kids would become NT kids. Evidence, however, suggests that the differences are inherent in the structure of the brain itself, having nothing to do with any chemical influences, at least in postnatal environments (and I have yet to find a single study purporting to demonstrate a prenatal chemical influence that affects autism rates). Taking the structural differences into account, our brains function exactly as designed. No application of chemicals afterward will cause them to change into "normal" brains. It may be possible one day to perform neurosurgery on the necessary scale, using nanobots. Ironically enough, the person devoted enough to the concept to actually develop surgical nanobots will very probably be autistic. However, this is not possible at current technological levels. (Using the notation from the role-playing system GURPS, we are at tech level 8, verging on 9 in some areas - but surgical nanites are TL-10.)
(Note that the term "designed" above is used as shorthand, and does not require belief in the non-falsifiable Intelligent Design hypothesis.)
_________________
One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word. - Robert A. Heinlein |
|
| Back to top |
|
monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 1920
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| DeaconBlues wrote: |
See, there's the basic problem with the mercury hypothesis - it assumes that if it weren't for an outside substance acting as some sort of neurosuppressor, all these autistic kids would become NT kids. |
Some people have proposed a 1:1 relationship between mercury and autism, but I think that is unlikely. An alternative hypothesis is that mercury is merely one contributor, and that reducing the effects of heavy metals might lead to some improvement.
| DeaconBlues wrote: |
Evidence, however, suggests that the differences are inherent in the structure of the brain itself, having nothing to do with any chemical influences, at least in postnatal environments (and I have yet to find a single study purporting to demonstrate a prenatal chemical influence that affects autism rates). |
There is research to suggest that prenatal factors are correlated to autism. Although I am not familiar with any on prenatal chemical exposure, why do you think that can be ruled out? Prenatal stress and infections have been correlated to autism ... why would heavy metal exposure not be a possible factor?
| Quote: | Neurosci Biobehav Rev. 2008 Jun 13.
Prenatal stress and risk for autism.
Kinney DK, Munir KM, Crowley DJ, Miller AM.
Mailman Research Center, McLean Hospital, 115 Mill Street, Belmont, MA 02478, USA; Department of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School, 25 Shattuck Street, Boston, MA 02115, USA.
This paper reviews several converging lines of research that suggest that prenatal exposure to environmental stress may increase risk for autistic disorder (AD). We first discuss studies finding that prenatal exposure to stressful life events is associated with significantly increased risk of AD, as well as other disorders, such as schizophrenia and depression. We then review evidence from animal and human studies that prenatal stress can produce both (a) abnormal postnatal behaviors that resemble the defining symptoms of AD, and (b) other abnormalities that have elevated rates in AD, such as learning deficits, seizure disorders, perinatal complications, immunologic and neuroinflammatory anomalies, and low postnatal tolerance for stress. We explain why an etiologic role for prenatal stress is compatible with genetic factors in AD, and describe how stress can disrupt fetal brain development. Finally, we discuss implications for understanding underlying processes in AD, including potential gene-environment interactions, and developing new therapies and early prevention programs. |
...
| DeaconBlues wrote: |
Taking the structural differences into account, our brains function exactly as designed. No application of chemicals afterward will cause them to change into "normal" brains.
|
I agree that once the brain is set, that often determines the patterns for life. But it is not yet clear with autism when the various patterns are set - some may be early and may inevitably affect subsequent development; in other cases, it may be possible to lay down later neural circuits in a less autistic form.
Also, while I understand you not wishing to invoke intelligent design or teleological fallacies, I would suggest that if there is such a thing as a design, then various positions on the spectrum may represent progressive departure from that design ... different developmental switches turn on or off at the wrong time, genetic mutations lead to systems that don't work, etc. People on the extreme end of the spectrum have an undeniable dysfunction that cannot be considered part of the design.
Last edited by monty on Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 1920
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here is an article that claims prenatal exposure to valproic acid (a drug used as a sedative/anti-epileptic) can cause ASDs.
| Quote: | Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2007 Aug 14;104(33):13501-6. Epub 2007 Aug 3.
Elevated NMDA receptor levels and enhanced postsynaptic long-term potentiation induced by prenatal exposure to valproic acid.
Rinaldi T, Kulangara K, Antoniello K, Markram H.
Laboratory of Neural Microcircuits, Brain Mind Institute, Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne, CH 1015 Lausanne, Switzerland.
Valproic acid (VPA) is a powerful teratogen causing birth defects in humans, including autism spectrum disorder (ASD), if exposure occurs during the first trimester of embryogenesis. Learning and memory alterations are common symptoms of ASD, but underlying molecular and synaptic alterations remain unknown. We therefore studied plasticity-related mechanisms in the neocortex of 2-week-old rats prenatally exposed to VPA and tested for changes in glutamate-mediated transmission and plasticity in the neocortex. We found a selective overexpression of NR2A and NR2B subunits of NMDA receptors, as well as the commonly linked kinase calcium/calmodulin-dependent protein kinase II. Synaptic plasticity experiments between pairs of pyramidal neurons revealed an augmented postsynaptic form of long-term potentiation. These results indicate that VPA significantly enhances NMDA receptor-mediated transmission and causes increased plasticity in the neocortex. Enhanced plasticity introduces a surprising perspective to the potential molecular and synaptic mechanisms involved in children prenatally exposed to VPA. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
