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unnasch
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10 Jan 2009, 9:39 pm

I could really use your help. :?

My husband's niece is diagnosed ADHD/bipolar. She is a college graduate, she's employed, rents an apartment, owns and drives her own vehicle, is newly married, and is kind-hearted. However, she has many of the same struggles that HFA and Aspies do in the social skills and cues department. She's quite awkward. Whether she "is" on the spectrum or not doesn't matter (although she does happen to be MENSA material), she "passes" as NT, but simply quirky, loveable, and slightly irresponsible . . .

She doesn't know when to leave. (Truthfully, I have found that there are many NT's who make the same blunder!) Her new hubby, who I suspect also has ADHD, is of no help. They are two married people, with not too many obligations or responsibilities outside of job and rent and church, just sort of living "in the moment".

Whether we have invited them over for games & movie night, or whether they just stop over, or if it's just for supper, they never take the initiative to leave on their own. As long as our teen & tween kids are happy to be "played" with, they stay.

She laments to her mother, "I just can't read social cues, body language." But she has made zero effort to improve the situation. She hasn't taken on the burden to actually learn. Instead, the burden is on us to figure out how to get them to leave without hurting their feelings.

Last time we invited them over, we gave them the head's up with the verbal invite that "We'll need to wrap it up BY 10:00." We still had to wrench them out the door at 10:30. Tonight they met her parents here at our house FOR SUPPER, and I could tell their intention was to stay all evening, long after her parents had left. (They are NIGHT OWLS who stay up late and sleep late--they have been here before and stayed into the morning, just sort of "camped out".) But my hubby was leaving to go somewhere, and had to say, "Well, we're going to have to call this a night..." and it STILL took them at least 20 minutes of standing at the door, putting off leaving.

She'll say things like, "When do you want us to leave?", or "Do you want us to leave?" Whoa. My point is, the burden should NOT be on US, and she is trying to pass the burden on to us; make US make the decision for her. She is 30 years old, and it is time for her to learn, for her own social welfare.

Can you help me? Can you help me keep my sanity? Can you help me help her? What are your "social rules" that help you not overstay your welcome? I have worked quite a lot with low-functioning aspies and auties, but never with someone this old, this intelligent, this functional--or a relative. So, it's a whole different ballgame for me.

Next time, do I have to be very frank on her arrival and say something like, "I need you to decide and tell me now what you think would be a reasonable time to leave on an evening like this (whatever it entails), and I want you to watch the clock, and stick with your time. This is a social skills lesson, and for your own good." Wow, I would feel like a Life Skills teacher speaking to a student.

Ack! I hate this! Please help. What would you want your aunt and uncle to say to you, if you were a perfectly high-functioning, intelligent 30-year-old woman--with no clue? I do appreciate your help and time. This is most distressing and frustrating. :?

tracy



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10 Jan 2009, 11:21 pm

I think that as you say they are night owls, they live on a different time schedule than you, rising late and staying up late so they're bringing their timeframe into your life but not allowing for the difference, still you'd think they'd have got the picture by now.

Seems like she IS asking you to be blunt and direct about when you want them to go, but you feel uncomfortable about that. I think you have to be blunt, it's better than being annoyed in this way. I guess it's more about making you feel comfortable about making those sorts of statements so just say stuff like 'well we usually go to bed about now, so I guess haha I'll have to throw you guys out' and stand up and if they remain sitting, extend your hand (as though to help her up) and say 'yep, sweetheart it's time for you to go now, with a smile. then if they're still hanging around, just start saying 'bye bye, bye bye, yes it's time for bye byes....'

She just doesn't get it so I think you have to do that sort of 'door b***h' thing, don't be embarrassed about it, it's obvious you care for them, they're just 'dense' about this matter.

any good?



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11 Jan 2009, 1:13 am

Welcome to WP.

unnasch wrote:
She laments to her mother, "I just can't read social cues, body language." But she has made zero effort to improve the situation.

So? Everyone is good at some things and bad at others. My mother is terrible at math, and makes no effort to improve. I've tried to tell her about even some very simple things, and explain everything clearly, but she just doesn't want to hear it. She just has zero interest in it. *Shrug* Not much I can do about it really.

Quote:
Last time we invited them over, we gave them the head's up with the verbal invite that "We'll need to wrap it up BY 10:00." We still had to wrench them out the door at 10:30. Tonight they met her parents here at our house FOR SUPPER, and I could tell their intention was to stay all evening, long after her parents had left. (They are NIGHT OWLS who stay up late and sleep late--they have been here before and stayed into the morning, just sort of "camped out".) But my hubby was leaving to go somewhere, and had to say, "Well, we're going to have to call this a night..." and it STILL took them at least 20 minutes of standing at the door, putting off leaving.

Sounds like 2 problems: A - it takes them a few minutes to disengage from the party/socializing; and B - they may be misinterpreting "wrap it up BY 10:00" to mean "start wrapping it up sometime around 10".

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She'll say things like, "When do you want us to leave?", or "Do you want us to leave?" Whoa.

Sounds reasonable to me. I mean, maybe it's more direct than you're used to, but she seems to be respecting that it's your house and she can't stay indefinitely.

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My point is, the burden should NOT be on US, and she is trying to pass the burden on to us; make US make the decision for her.

What makes it a "burden"?

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Can you help me? Can you help me keep my sanity? Can you help me help her? What are your "social rules" that help you not overstay your welcome?

I don't have any special rules about that. Want to know how I don't overstay my welcome at parties?

I don't get invited to parties. :lol:

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Next time, do I have to be very frank on her arrival and say something like, "I need you to decide and tell me now what you think would be a reasonable time to leave on an evening like this (whatever it entails), and I want you to watch the clock, and stick with your time. This is a social skills lesson, and for your own good." Wow, I would feel like a Life Skills teacher speaking to a student.

That would sound very condescending. And she might just take your word for it and decide that she should be out the door by 11:30 or so, so you can get some sleep...

If someone said something like that to me, I'd get really weirded out. I'd be worried that I'd been rude without knowing it, but frustrated because I couldn't be sure. And be worried that I was just a bore or they didn't like me.

The problem with that "very frank" discussion is that it isn't very frank at all. It leaves her with no idea what the rules are; no idea what you like or dislike. After that, she might know that you're irritated, but not know why.

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Ack! I hate this! Please help. What would you want your aunt and uncle to say to you, if you were a perfectly high-functioning, intelligent 30-year-old woman--with no clue?

Make some rules. Clear, simple, direct rules. Or, if you don't want to codify your desires into a bunch of "thou shalts", figure out whatever is bothering you and why -- then tell her.

You don't have to be rude to be direct. You could say something like, "Hey, it's been great having you over, but you should probably get going, I'm kind of tired."


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11 Jan 2009, 4:50 am

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She'll say things like, "When do you want us to leave?", or "Do you want us to leave?"


if she knows thats the best she can do and she cant learn it, maybe you should accept that and be just as obvious back. Like saying "Yes you can go ... you are free to go" with a big smile



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11 Jan 2009, 4:34 pm

I think you have to be blunt and say "we're exhausted and need to get to bed, we need you to leave now". If she is on the spectrum it doesn't matter how old she is she may never understand how to pick up on social cues and know when to leave. I appreciate being told when to leave by my friends because otherwise I either stay too long or I hurry up and they complain I leave too soon. So you just have to tell them they must leave now.

The fact she lingers probably also indicates she is terribly lonely and cherishes the social interactions at your home. Perhaps you can find her some other social outlets, perhaps support groups, hobby groups, etc so she has someone else besides your family to socialize with.



unnasch
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11 Jan 2009, 9:33 pm

You each had wonderful insights, and they all really complemented one another. :salut: :hail: I'm going to print them out and have them at the ready. :wink: The only fair and loving thing to do is to be as clear as possible, and throw a little humor in there without wrecking the clarity.

"Burden" . . . well, there are members of my hubby's family who are SO self-conscious and want to be SO accomodating and doublespeak and beat around the bush SO much, that it actually does place the burden on me. I question my feelings, my behavior, and I'm never really sure what their motives or intentions are. It makes me feel like a meanie, and I know I'm not a meanie, or hard, or insensitive at all. So, she's inherited that trait, somewhat, as well--nurture or nature, I don't know. :cyclopsani:

I completely agree that people are good at some things and bad at others. That's a big mantra at our house, and with the kids I work with at schools. Everyone has gifts. :bball: :king: :jester:

I just know that her particular quirks--and she knows they hinder her--could be modified if she wanted to learn to modify them. I have plenty of quirks of my own. Including ADD (minus the 'H'), and all the lovelies that go along with that. :wall:

Again, thanks so much. Feel free to comment more; it can only help us be a pleasant, yet sane for us, oasis for them. Maybe I have to establish myself as their "Pack Leader" when they're here. :batman:

Wow, I do love these emotes. A plethora of emotes from which to choose is heaven on earth to me. :cheers:



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11 Jan 2009, 11:02 pm

unnasch wrote:
You each had wonderful insights, and they all really complemented one another. :salut: :hail: I'm going to print them out and have them at the ready. :wink: The only fair and loving thing to do is to be as clear as possible, and throw a little humor in there without wrecking the clarity.


You know what I'm going to suggest you don't throw in any humor. A lot of Aspies don't understand jokes, irony and what NT's call humor. It will just lead to confusion or misunderstanding. You have to spell it flat out. LEAVE NOW. You could prepare them though by saying ahead of time when 9:30 hits we have to go to bed. Even given them an earlier time to give them 30 mins to say their goodbyes and leave so that they will be gone by the time you really do want to go to bed.

unnasch wrote:
Again, thanks so much. Feel free to comment more; it can only help us be a pleasant, yet sane for us, oasis for them. Maybe I have to establish myself as their "Pack Leader" when they're here. :batman:



See that could be the problem, you're such a good Pack Leader. A number of Aspie women have professed to wanting to be in Scouting. :lol: Sorry just an inside joke.



unnasch
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12 Jan 2009, 12:13 am

I understand what you're saying about humor--I know that people on the spectrum live and speak and listen very literally. Maybe I meant 'lightheartedness'. Much of Beth's humor stems from word play and absurdity, as does her dad's. :jocolor:

I also agree with giving 30 minute 'lead time' for transitioning. She definitely needs that; I've seen her butt heads with her dad many times, and mostly it's because of misunderstanding or miscommunication, or because he's super anxious and impatient, and wants her to "snap to it"--'wake up NOW' or 'get ready to go NOW' or 'whatever'--and she just can't process and transition that quickly. It causes real blowups, and subsequent tension for everyone around.

No, I don't think I'm a good Pack Leader, or any kind of leader. But we're getting a dog, so I'm trying to learn via the 'Pet Whisperer'. :wink: So fascinating!! !

I stumbled upon this website last school year when I was a para in an elementary autism room. I was blessed (and I do truly mean 'blessed') to work with a 10-ish-year-old with Asperger's--low-functioning, horrid, horrid anxiety. I wanted to learn everything I could to help him; it was so new to me. This website really opened my eyes, and reading firsthand experiences was so amazing.

I went from always walking on eggshells with Mark to learning to read him (ie, when to push, when to back off, when to be lighthearted, when to mean business, when to give a brief verbal prod, when to shut up), in order to keep him at ease. I went from 'faking' calm to actually becoming calm, which in turn helped him, I think. That kiddo changed me forever; I handle absolutely everything in my world differently now, because I got to spend that time with him. The other boys changed me, too, each in his own way. They were angels God sent to make me a better person, and I could stand to be better every day. :heart:

Thanks again! :cheers:



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12 Jan 2009, 2:40 am

glad to be of some possible help.

you know your story intrigued me because there's an old B & W movie with a similar theme: guests who are unable to leave. it's called "Exterminating Angel". I don't know what your taste in movies is but it might amuse you, it's not a comedy at all, it's more surreal/arthouse nightmare/social commentary, directed by Luis Bunuel, it'll probably be subtitled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exterm ... ngel_(film)



unnasch
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12 Jan 2009, 8:27 am

Wow! That does sound nightmarish! :twisted: When you said "unable to leave", you literally meant "unable"! Not just that they couldn't bring themselves to say goodnight. :wink: