Dating in a society of societies...

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It's a society with a bloody civil war history and unresolved conflicts between groups , it's a society of 18 sects , a society of groups which each group has its own definition of patriotism and belonging, it's the society of societies. To be more accurate : a society of sectarian and religious societies , it's where I live. And me being as atheist and the dark sheep of my group means that I am an alien in that society , yet my ID shows "Muslim Shiaa" and I can't remove it , I can however change it to any other religion but that won't make any difference.

The general law (as criminal law, commercial law , taxations ) don't follow the sharia nor the church law but it follow civic secular laws...
However, all laws related to martial status, marriage, divorce and heritage follow the religious rules and those rules depend on the person's religion. for example Maronites must follow the patriarchal catholic rules,Shiites must follow the Supreme Shiite council, the Druzes submit to the druze sanctuary rules...etc. Every sect has its religious reference, except atheists ....atheists are not recognized as distinct citizens and have no legislative reference for anything personal-related stuff such as marriage and divorce.

So if I want to get married then I am obliged to get married under the Supreme Shiite Council since my ID shows ' Muslim Shiite', if I have children of different genders then I have no right to inherit my wealth to a boy and girl equally since the heritage must follows the rules of Shiite islam (hence the girl would get less wealth)..... etc etc even if I disbelieve in such rules.

Civil marriage doesn't exist here since its practice was both opposed by all Churches and Councils(cheikhs) , but it can be legalized if the couples get a civil marriage abroad.

Politics and religion can't be separated, you can accurately guess which political party a person follows here based on his sect alone. Communists are well-identified by their taste of fashion , yet even communist and socialist parties are divided in sectarian way (for example Communist Shiia are usually member of the Lebanese communist party which is ally to Hezbollah while most other communists of other sects would follow the 'democratic leftwing',an anti-hezbollah communist party)

Religious practice is a core cultural value , even to the other sects who don't follow such religious practice. For example, my Christian co-workers were kinda puzzled and even offended when they found out that I don't fast during Ramadan which is an Islamic practice that I am supposed to do , they even tried to encourage me to follow the rules of "my religion", that's probably because any sign of atheism and disbelief in god is an offense to any sect and one disobeying his/her native religion is a sign of atheism.

For all these reasons, those sub-societies rarely interbreed and even rarely ..."inter-date" successfully. An atheist guy or girl might not be suitable for most people here.

About 80% of Shiaa follow Hezbollah politically and religo-ideologically and so most Shiaa girls are Hezbollah too, since I refute Hezbollah and their dogma then Shiaa girls can't stand me. Besides, a great portion of these girls rarely date ...they would be suppressed for arranged marriages anyways.

Most Sunnites follow a moderate political Sunnite party (future mvt) which make them more moderate than the Shiaa community in general but due to the lately bloody conflicts between the 2 communities , while I can relate better with Sunnite girls when it comes to politics and lifestyle , a Sunnite girl would likely avoid a "Shiaa" guy as myself ....and so an atheist for no reason.

Christians ,......Christian girls are usually the most friendly but they become extremely extremely wary once they know I am from Shiaa family due to religious and political conflicts and also to the stereotypical prejudgments. , and it's even worse when they know I am in fact an atheist.

Druze girls are simply not allowed to have a relationship with anyone outside of their sects, any girl who does that might be expelled by her community. And Hezbollah is hated by Druze and so everyone who holds a Shiite ID, like myself.


Communist girls ....in order to date a communist girl means that you have to wear like an idiot emo, smoke weed and go hippie .... not my lifestyle at all. While Communists worship no god, they worship something worse: dictator figures such as Stalin and Castro , a humanist atheist like myself would use their pictures to wipe his ass with. Communists are atheists due to their political ideology which is often chosen by their parents and not by their own choice. Communists rarely share the sense of humanity and the sense of knowledge (about science and evolution in specific) with neutral atheists. Communism IS a sect.


Not to mention my troubles in social and non-verbal skills ....

Is anyone living in such a society? and how a black sheep can even succeed in dating in such society?

Last edited by LePetitPrince on 26 Jan 2009, 12:20 pm, edited 5 times in total.

check your PM. hopefully, it will help

Have you ever considered moving to North America or Europe? Most countries on those two continents (except for the southern US) have high incidence of Athiesm or at the very least an acceptance of athiests into their culture...

Dayum, I had no idea it was that diverse as well as crazy over there. I can't even begin to imagine the reason for putting a religion on a personal ID and why you couldn't leave religion out.

I would say go for the hippies and emos.....kidding. But are you so sure that everyone is extreme in their belief? You couldn't get to know someone and ask about their faith or non faith?

Sounds crazy...if it were me I'd move to another country that was tolerant as well as fair to those of non sectarian or faith based societies but that's me. Easy said than done I guess. It would probably be hard leaving your family, job and lifestyle behind. I hear some aspies don't do well with change.

Maybe get on the website and check people living near your area or find a community of people like yourself living there. That is if there is such site. Also ask around.

Good luck.

Always seeking for such opportunity but I would only move to another country for something certain such as good job opportunity, I would never just move for something absurd and uncertain such finding a suitable partner.........



As I said in my post above, I would only more for a certain benefit. As for craziness .... well, a fish doesn' t know the feeling of "wet" because it always lives in water , and so I don't really feel the this 'craziness' here because I am tainted by it , I might realize it if I live elsewhere long enough.
My thread's aim is to find a way to find a good tactic for dating in such environment and not how to change my life's environment, yet moving is an uncertain option that I am hoping for.

*bump*

*sigh* , long threads always fail, don't they?

It is an issue that not many can relate here.

Personally I think the answer would to be to form many more sects to which point it becomes untenable to run.

Seriously though Lebanon is and has been for a long time quite secular compared to other countries in the region. It is still quite fragile. Obviously there are groups that don't want this.

There was even a period when there was a druze land between Syria and Lebanon. This was that nature of colonialism, often the colonialist needed some degree of self rule in the colonies because they can't do it all themselves. But this only existed because France could make it so, just like there was only a king of Iraq because the British could make it so. This is the history that the various sects are used to so it is natural to forum a constitution that let them set their own laws.

You have to make it Lebanon’s interest to move toward more secular society and therefore these sect have to be feel more secure in this dispite having less powers.

Hezbollah is exploiting this lack of security. That is why Christians and other say they will back them even though they used to be rivals. That is because they don’t think they will get stability otherwise.

I expect the answer I’ll give you are not going to like. But it is true if you want things to change you have to make a stand for what you believe in a one point. Even if that means sacrifice.

yep

It's ok , I know that.



Nice plan, I'll start a local Flying Spaghetti monster sect .




Umm, don't get me wrong, I am not against dating a moderate religious person (not extremist) nor dating someone that support an opposite political view (8th March coalition, I guess you know what that means, Equal) , so I am willing for a compromise but the question is ....would she accepts me? and if she does, would her parents accept me?(and it's already happened to be refuted by a girl's parents).

I am fairly opened for a compromise with religious Shiites but as I said most of them are Hezbollah and they are one of the most sectarian groups if not the most, how the hell a typical Shiite girl would accept an anti-Hezbollah atheist? Not even a non-Hezbollah religious Shiite group would tolerate an atheist. It's not easy to live with someone who thinks that you deserve to be backed in god's oven.

My post is based on real experiences and several dating attempts I made , note that girls' parents play a major role in refuting a bf from another sect , and being 'belonged' to the same sect of Hezbollah, the most hated and feared party by the other sects , doesn't help much ...even if declare my total secularism.

Yes I think you are right. The problem is there are people like you by each of you live your separate lives. You need a way to bring all of them together, internet is one way to gather consensus then you have to actually meet to be successful

Also I think a weakness that you could exploit is that some sects have jurisdiction by default. As their religious code does not really allow them to deal with civil justice, and religion deliberation is more about religious tenants like religious marriage, like asking the pope for an annulment. You might get sympathy with some of the less radical sects. But do your research to be sure.

Chances are you are going to have more luck starting first with thinkers and intellectuals. Other people are just living day to day, they know which side their bread is buttered. They just want stability. You have to convince that stability will come by mixing, and having secular law. You need programs and activities for different communities to mix. Not just the middle classes that already do.

Hezbollah has gone round and done the opposite and still does.

What progress have been made for inter-religious marriages, have there been any challenges at all? Do people marry abroad then come back? What about Shiites and Sunni marriage?

Without the convincing you not find. That is what memes are, ideas that take hold. Hearts and minds is an age old technique.

In fact, I met atheist/agnostic/secular Lebanese people through local forums but most of them were rebels against their parents, yet their parents wouldn't allow to date people from different sects and mostly from different religion. Most relationships that happened between people of different sects had failed due to this obstacle. My parents wouldn't mind at all lol but that's just me.

You should note that this wary manner between sects is not mainly due to religious differences but mostly to due to serious political rivalry and bloodshed history.

Besides , most of them were teenagers , it's more rare to find an atheist/agnostic/secular around my age.




That's an idea...



I am not the President ! ! ..... maybe if I make a forum dedicated for nonreligious Lebanese or something ...hmmm

In fact, those are the principles of 14 March coalition , while their secular and anti-sectarian principles are far from practical for now but at least they have established it as a goal , the "unity dream" as it was called during the Cedar Revolution on 2005...




......and the cute Hezbollah has totally ruined this 'dream' by invading Beirut on May 2008 , as well the Lebanese Army' illogical neutrality between a well-funded and well-organized armed Militia + well funded Pro-syrian thugs as one side and unarmed citizens as other side has contributed well in destroying this goal. Many of the 14-March's Lebanese supporters who support the unity , independence, secularism and Lebanese government as the only authority have lost faith after they were let down by the Lebanese army.

Now they are seeking for re-arming and went back to the tribal thinking.




Yes, some people marry a civil marriage abroad and come back , only the practice of the civil marriage is not legalized here but Civil marriage is legally recognized and registered . Funny, no?




They are usually unhappy, couple of marriages took a very ugly curve , at least that what I heard from the very few Sunnite-Shiite marriage cases that I am aware of.



Thanks.

Well it is settled then. You have an in.

Definitely go for this forum and start by inviting anyone sympathetic, and ask them to do likewise. You are more likely to find a like minded woman if you throw yourself into this cause and focus on that.

Your message is secular society towards stability.

Like you said it is not anti religious, but wants to live together without sectarian rules.

The marrying aboard thing is a great loophole. You should encourage people to do this as much as possible if they agree with separating civil from religion. It doesn't matter if they are from a different sect or not, the more people exploit this loop hole the more it will highlight the constitution needs amending.

Any other loop holes?

If there are teenagers doesn’t matter, the point is they will grow up so you have keep engaging them.

You parent don’t mind that is the point. Things change other peoples views will change. Naturally there will be some resistance.

This is good stuff. We never hear what's actually going on in Lebanon, or what people actually think, just what the various interested parties (Syria, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and, of course, Iran) want us to hear.

I didn't even know there was a dating scene; I just thought that Muslims didn't date (but then we never hear about the rule, only the exception). The idea of religious Communists is surreal; or maybe that's just the way Commies are portrayed in the US...

Well, I see now that we don't have it nearly as bad as all that. I don't know, here in the South you might get a gun pointed at you if you really messed up, but nothing like it could be where you are.

Maybe halfway; something like Turkey or Algeria? I don't know of many moderate Shi'a states (well, I'm not sure there's that many outside of Iran and Syria), but I hear there's communities of your co-religion all over the Middle East. Turky's the only Mulsim place I've been, and I only offended two or three people in two days (about normal for me in any country...

I can relate to being an atheist from an overwhelmingly religious (Catholic, in my case) country. However in my experience atheism is, while considered much 'weirder' than minority religions, doesn't arouse as much hostility as being a Protestant or a Jew (though I did get quite a bit of bullying as a child for being an atheist, though I went to a secular school in one of the most secular, liberal parts of the country). Hardcore Protestants, Orthodox Jews, etc arouse more hostility among my countrymen than those only nominally religious. Another difference is we have strict separation of Church and State; civil marriage for example is the only type of marriage that has any legal standing, and passports and similar documents don't mention religion.

There's a religious movement in the U.S. that's founded on religious tolerance. You'll find plenty of mixed-religion couples in that environment, even though their beliefs are nothing alike.

If you do your research, you might find a spot where Atheists meet up, or Unitarian Universalists. Either should be rather sympathetic to your cause, and if the gender ratio is favorable, might have some luck with dating. ; )

Unitarianism is a bit hard to find outside of North America and Western Europe, but there are isolated locations across the globe. I haven't had much experience with looking up Atheist meeting location, so I don't know what to tell you there.