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ensabah6
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:00 am    Post subject: "{Stereotyped and repetitive motor behaviors are a core Reply with quote

Stereotyped and repetitive motor behaviors are a core part of the diagnosis of AS and other ASDs"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

really? I have the other 4 - restricted interests, lack of social skills, clumsy motor, no delay in language, but I don't have have that (or unusual sensory sensitivies, although i cant hear speech over music or other people talking)
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Sea_of_Saiyan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Tony Attwood's book on Asperger's syndrome, he explores the issues he has with the DSM-IV's list of diagnostic criteria. One of the points he mentions is that repetitive motor behavior is actually rare in patients with AS and was not a part of the criteria published by Hans Asperger.

Many aspies (and many NT's) do something similar to that called "stimming" (an abbreviation of "self-stimulation"), which is essentially the knuckle-cracking, hand-wringing and lip-biting that some people do semi-automatically while under stress.
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poopylungstuffing
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but to me, stimming seems like "motor behaviour"....and it is typically repetative...

maybe I am missing something.
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millie
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i stim a fair bit.
I am interested in this thread.
i might add that anxiety is often a co-morbid of autism and stimming is linked to anxiety and stress.
I have started a daily programme of diaphragmatic breathing of late - suggested by my psych who is an autism specialist - and my stimming has reduced considerably.

i still find it hard to keep still and i move some part of my body just about all the time.
If i do not stim - i also increase my monologues....

it is jsut a huge excess of energy that needs some kind of outlet.

some of us experience it and some do not.
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Fo-Rum
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went out today with my brother, his fiance, the fiance's grandmother, to a restaurant. Not only did I engage little in the conversation, I didn't pay a lot of attention to it. I kept looking mostly around my environment and at the people eating more than the people I was there with, but this is beside the subject. I did 3 repetitive motions: chewed my lip, rubbed my right hand with my left thumb, and moved my legs in a small motion. That is more than what I usually do by myself, which is typically move my legs, and in sudden excited moments (the trigger is often unexplainable by myself), rapid hand shakes (not flapping as much as shake in a stiff manner).

Honestly, I think there is a lot that is just categorized incorrectly, or poorly understood. I see too many patterns of contradictions between the diagnostic criteria and explanations and the so called real thing, and then of course with how the average person actually is.

That is just another good reason why the label doesn't matter as much as the symptoms.
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dougn
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sea_of_Saiyan wrote:
In Tony Attwood's book on Asperger's syndrome, he explores the issues he has with the DSM-IV's list of diagnostic criteria. One of the points he mentions is that repetitive motor behavior is actually rare in patients with AS and was not a part of the criteria published by Hans Asperger.

Many aspies (and many NT's) do something similar to that called "stimming" (an abbreviation of "self-stimulation"), which is essentially the knuckle-cracking, hand-wringing and lip-biting that some people do semi-automatically while under stress.

What's the difference between stimming and repetitive motor behavior?
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Sora
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sea_of_Saiyan wrote:
In Tony Attwood's book on Asperger's syndrome, he explores the issues he has with the DSM-IV's list of diagnostic criteria. One of the points he mentions is that repetitive motor behavior is actually rare in patients with AS and was not a part of the criteria published by Hans Asperger.


Does Attwood really say that? Then he'd be wrong about the DSM actually.

The DSM also claims that that motor mannerisms are rare in those with AS and that they're more likely to have the all-encompassing single narrow interest. The ICD says the same.

Sea_of_Saiyan wrote:
Many aspies (and many NT's) do something similar to that called "stimming" (an abbreviation of "self-stimulation"), which is essentially the knuckle-cracking, hand-wringing and lip-biting that some people do semi-automatically while under stress.


That are motor mannerisms.

Self-stimulating behaviours that consist of stereotyped movements are motor mannerisms.

Biting your lip and such are commonly accepted as normal unlike spinning, though they're pretty much the some as spinning or complicated hand movements.

The ones non-autistic people tend to do are often socially appropriate, some others are not because they're bigger, more obvious or even loud.
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Danielismyname
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Attwood is correct; I have no idea why they left some criterion in themselves when they're explicitly contradicted by the expanded text that explains them. Perhaps they're trying to catch everyone? The only one that's applicable under the repetitive behaviours cluster is the narrow interest insofar as Asperger's goes.

People with prototypical Asperger's don't "stim" in the way that people with Autism do, i.e., a lack of overt and frequent rocking, swaying, flapping, finger flapping etcetera.
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dougn
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danielismyname wrote:
People with prototypical Asperger's don't "stim" in the way that people with Autism do, i.e., a lack of overt and frequent rocking, swaying, flapping, finger flapping etcetera.

I don't do these things now (at least not much) but I certainly did as a child. (Not all of them - specifically it was hand flapping.
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Danielismyname
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is actually possible for people with AS to do such as a child, and improve as they age (Wing's paper). But as adults, it's rarely seen.

Whether this is individuals with AS who're more severe than the typical cases to begin with, they have another milder form of Autism, or they start off severe with run-of-the-mill Autism and improve (50% of these latter people "regress" at puberty) is up for speculation.
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dougn
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danielismyname wrote:
It is actually possible for people with AS to do such as a child, and improve as they age (Wing's paper). But as adults, it's rarely seen.

Whether this is individuals with AS who're more severe than the typical cases to begin with, they have another milder form of Autism, or they start off severe with run-of-the-mill Autism and improve (50% of these latter people "regress" at puberty) is up for speculation.

Very interesting.

As far as I know, I have only ever fit the criteria for AS, not classical autism. I am not aware that I have ever had any language or communication problems, which pretty much settles it.

I have no idea if I am, or was a severe case, a mild case ... I don't really have any conception of that.
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Liresse
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am also interested in this thread. When I first thought I had AS, I thought I didn't have ANY stimming behaviours. But now I realise that is because if it is true stimming, then it's subconscious/unconscious - of course I wouldn't be aware of it.

Now that I am trying to catch myself stimming (amusing, actually) I see a bunch of "WEIRD STUFF" I've always done that isn't even particularly obviously stimming, which is actually technically a repetitive motor movement. This includes the predictable:
- rocking forwards and backwards
- jiggling both legs
- swaying side to side
- hopping from one foot to the other
- spinning pens
- rubbing random objects
- spinning on chairs

but also:
- clenching fists
- pointing/unpointing my toes while sitting (basically flexing ankle)
- inscribing an infinity sign (sideways figure 8) with my hand - modified hand flapping? lol
- highly modified infinity sign (looks like I'm conducting 4/4)
- rubbing the hair on the backs of my fingers against my lip
- rubbing my arms from shoulder to elbow

Most of you probably won't bother to read this post because it's not very remarkable, but to the OP: if you really feel you fit the AS criteria except for the stimming, you might want to soulsearch (without over-analysing yourself) for alternative realisations of "repetitive behaviour."

And anyway, I found it amusing to list them out.
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millie
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i also wonder if my stimming is attributable to weird sensory integration stuff.
i live with an unbearable sense of needing to stretch my joints and stiffen my limbs and shake out energy. A remot control stretching rack would be very good. I could strap myself in and press a little button and get some relief.

In my case, it has not improved with age.

i came off medication some months ago and this sense has increased.
but again - it may be ADHD as a co-morbid or some kind of mild tourettes as a co-morbid. Some of my twists and stretches are compulsive, and i do have funny facial expressions (rubber face). One of my brothers would probably be considered in this light also.

It is as i have said, partially related to high levels of anxiety which in turn are related to sensory problems and the inability to filter out input.

I walk down the street with arms stretched and swinging. i sit and tap, and stretch limbs. I get up from a chair mid-sentence - not in order to leave - but because the sitting is unbearable, i do complex stretches in public and my shoulder joints feel so loose i am compelled to strech and contort them no matter where i am.

the only thing that gets rid of it is if I exercise fanatically at about 4 hours a day. and i am not interested in doing that.
i do a bit...but 4 hours?
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