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Rakkety_Tamm
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 Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:06 pm Post subject: Music = Math, Math = Music |
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music is the languge of the world, and that math is the languge of the universe, you also saying that math is the languge of the world and music is the languge of the universe, for music and math are one and the same. Audio waves produced by lets say, because I'm a trumpet player, a trumpet are sine waves, traveling in a predict able pattern, and changeing the size and shape as the notes get louder, softer, higher or lower. When counting intervels (gaps between notes on the scale) up or down, you count steps. in a 120 BPM song written in 4/4 time, you get 120 beats per minute, 30 messures per minute, each consisting of 4 beats, and each of those four beats can be divided up into either, Quaternotes, Eightnotes, Sixteenth notes, Thirtysecond notes, or Sixtyforth notes. When writing music, you must use algabra to factor diffrence in the sound waves from each of the diffrent instruments, not just the types of instruments, but each indiviual instrument in each section. The sound will travel in diffrent ways from each instrument at each pitch. With this in mind, your eyes will open to an entire diffrent world of math, this dealing with sine waves and fractions.
I do hope that this has been inlightening if you already didn't know this.
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Lonermutant
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Location: Namsos, Norway
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| Music and really basic geometry is the only math i can do, but music is also about feelings and emotions and can't always be broken down into theory. |
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Rakkety_Tamm
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: |
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True, when playing you must "Diva," or play the conture of the lines to make music more that notes on a page. But, inorder to play the conture of the lines to express feelings in music, it helps to know the math behind the spacing of the notes and in the sine waves to keep the music in tune.
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Lonermutant
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Rakkety_Tamm wrote: | | True, when playing you must "Diva," or play the conture of the lines to make music more that notes on a page. But, inorder to play the conture of the lines to express feelings in music, it helps to know the math behind the spacing of the notes and in the sine waves to keep the music in tune. |
And don't forget that Curt Cobain who wasn't a very good guitarist killed the very advanced "shredding" of the late 80's!
There are a lot of great guitarists who know absolutely zero about the theory behind what they play, but musical theory actually fascinate me. I'm working on 16th notes right now. |
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larsenjw92286
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Location: Seattle, Washington
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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How could those two things be related? Math deals with computation, and music deals with creativity.
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Jason Larsen
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Lonermutant
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| larsenjw92286 wrote: | | How could those two things be related? Math deals with computation, and music deals with creativity. |
Well said, Jason! |
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larsenjw92286
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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It couldn't be said any better.
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Jason Larsen
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Rakkety_Tamm
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| larsenjw92286 wrote: | | How could those two things be related? Math deals with computation, and music deals with creativity. |
Ok, listen up. Music and math are the same thing, not just related. If you do not see that, then you don't understand ether music or math. If you understand the concept of sine waves which you learn in geometry and advanced algabra, you would also know that that is how sound travels. In music theory, you learn that the higher the pitch of the musical note, the closer the waves are together, which can be expressed in an algabraic forumula (Y=sine(AX+b). Depending on the variables such as note value, instrument type, pitch, and wether or not they are in tune, these factor in which what A and b equal. Apperently, you have neither taken neither advanced algabra nor music theory.
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Lonermutant
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: |
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Excuse me for asking, but do you actually play any instruments yourself?
| Rakkety_Tamm wrote: | | larsenjw92286 wrote: | | How could those two things be related? Math deals with computation, and music deals with creativity. |
Ok, listen up. Music and math are the same thing, not just related. If you do not see that, then you don't understand ether music or math. If you understand the concept of sine waves which you learn in geometry and advanced algabra, you would also know that that is how sound travels. In music theory, you learn that the higher the pitch of the musical note, the closer the waves are together, which can be expressed in an algabraic forumula (Y=sine(AX+b). Depending on the variables such as note value, instrument type, pitch, and wether or not they are in tune, these factor in which what A and b equal. Apperently, you have neither taken neither advanced algabra nor music theory. |
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Musical_Lottie
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Location: Bedfordshire, East of England
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Well, my tuppence-worth -
Music works on many levels.
1) the sequence and combination of notes sound good
2) it incorporates many techniques which are fun to analyse
3) it works on an emotional level - it can evoke things inside people that words can't
4) it's mathematical, even just to a simple level, such as intervals, related keys etc.
5) you could analyse the exact science behind the soundwaves and why they sound good.
I've probably missed a load of intermediate levels, but they're the main ones I could think of off the top of my head. Music is mathematical, intentionally or not, but that's not usually apparent until one begins to analyse the piece. In my opinion, there are three main ways to compose - using emotion, trail and error, or maths; and any combination of those. So long as it sounds good and gets any intended message across, surely it's done its job?
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Lonermutant
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: |
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I think seeing music as emotion is a better way of seeing it. You use technique and theory to put your feelings into something, not as technique and theory in itself.
| Musical_Lottie wrote: | Well, my tuppence-worth -
Music works on many levels.
1) the sequence and combination of notes sound good
2) it incorporates many techniques which are fun to analyse
3) it works on an emotional level - it can evoke things inside people that words can't
4) it's mathematical, even just to a simple level, such as intervals, related keys etc.
5) you could analyse the exact science behind the soundwaves and why they sound good.
I've probably missed a load of intermediate levels, but they're the main ones I could think of off the top of my head. Music is mathematical, intentionally or not, but that's not usually apparent until one begins to analyse the piece. In my opinion, there are three main ways to compose - using emotion, trail and error, or maths; and any combination of those. So long as it sounds good and gets any intended message across, surely it's done its job? |
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Rakkety_Tamm
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Lonermutant wrote: | | Excuse me for asking, but do you actually play any instruments yourself? |
why yes, in fact, I do. Sevreal acully, Saprano Trombone, Piccolo Trumpet, Cornet, Tuba, Trumpet, Baritone, Bagpipes, Irish flute, Vibes, marimba, Steel drum, 7th marching bass(IPE), and Euphonium.[/list]
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larsenjw92286
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DivaD
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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i don't think that, just because you can use maths to analyse music, you can say that maths = music and music = maths. you can use maths to analyse anything... you can use maths to analyse poo, but you wouldn't say that poo is maths and maths is poo... no hang on a minute, that's right! 
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Cade
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Rakkety_Tamm wrote: | | larsenjw92286 wrote: | | How could those two things be related? Math deals with computation, and music deals with creativity. |
Ok, listen up. Music and math are the same thing, not just related. |
OK, now it's your turn to listen up. As a musician with college degree in music (emphasis on jazz guitar - lots and lots of music theory under my belt, thank you), and someone who's not too shabby with math, I'd say Jason is very right.
Math primarily deals with theory and abstract concepts. Music deals with creating something aesthetic and concrete based on principles that can be mathematically represented or demonstrated. However, that mathematical representation is not necessary for music to be created.
| Quote: | | If you do not see that, then you don't understand ether music or math. |
I understand both, and I would say if you do not see the distinctions between them that make them two different human endeavors, either you;ve failing to understand them, or you're so in love with your novel ideas you can't see where you are wrong.
| Quote: | | If you understand the concept of sine waves which you learn in geometry and advanced algabra, you would also know that that is how sound travels. In music theory, you learn that the higher the pitch of the musical note, the closer the waves are together, which can be expressed in an algabraic forumula (Y=sine(AX+b). Depending on the variables such as note value, instrument type, pitch, and wether or not they are in tune, these factor in which what A and b equal. |
This is all well and good, if not rather contentious. But remember that math is a symbolic system that represents ideas abstracted from reality, but not reality itself. This why circles are a big deal in geometry, yet a prefect circle as represented in geometry does not exist in nature. The circle is an abstract idea and nothing more.
In the same vein, geometric representations of sound waves are not music - it's an abstraction. Music notation is not music - again, it's an abstrraction. Music theory is not music - one more time: it's an abstraction. Music itself is not an abstraction, but a concrete and real phenomenon. There is a difference. It shouldn't - and doesn't - take either a musician or a mathematican to get that.
| Quote: | | Apperently, you have neither taken neither advanced algabra nor music theory. |
I see your purpose here isn't to make friends.
No, really, seriously, people usually don't like it when you make wild negative assumptions about them based solely on them disagreeing with you.
At any rate, I stress that I have taken music theory (6 semesters of it, not to mention decades of using it as a practicing musician) and I'm a geometry fiend. So contrary to your somewhat insulting assumptions about the extent of Jason's education, I clearly prove it is quite possible from someone to have this knowledge and disagree thoroughly with you.
If you simply think music is math, which is nothing more than a system of abstractions, I feel sorry for you. There really is so much more to be experienced in the beauty and wonder of music than music theory and symbolic representations of sound waves. Granted, I wouldn't wish to assume anything about you, but if by chance you never taken philosophy of aesthetics and beauty, you might want to consider it.
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Last edited by Cade on Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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